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Nick:	Arwen's daughter (Registered User)
Date/Time:	Thu, 6/17/2004 at 23:56 EDT (Thu, 6/17/2004 at 22:56 CDT)
Browser/OS:	Microsoft Internet Explorer V6.0 using Windows NT 5.1
In Reply To:	Thanks so much  <2ndcreator>  [6/17/2004 @ 21:46]  (1/1)
Subject:	Pride
Message:
I don't think Tolkien was worried too much about the idea of good oaths and bad oaths, but I will be the first to say I never met the man and am not totally sure on this.  It strikes me that the 'bad oaths', especially the oath of Feanor, are oaths taken out of pride, or hubris if you prefer the Greek term (sorry I've been taking a lot of Greek Lit classes recently).  The mindset behind the oath is the biggest thing.  I don't think the message is about not taking oaths, but about not being overly proud.  Feanor got into trouble because he went against the Valar and against his own people, something he seemed quite willing to do even without his oath.  Those who take oaths with little thought of themselves and without hubris are better people, not because of the 'good oath' but because of the good character.  I think the oath is less significant than the pride or lack of behind it. -------------------------------------- for you beautiful ones my thought is not changeable --Sappho

• Oath taking  <2ndcreator>  [6/15/2004 @ 19:25]  (5/34)
• Merry and Pippin  <Senta>  [6/16/2004 @ 22:52]  (0/0)
• Noble oaths and consequences  <Arwen's daughter>  [6/16/2004 @ 22:23]  (1/2)
• Thanks so much  <2ndcreator>  [6/17/2004 @ 21:46]  (1/1)
• Pride  <Arwen's daughter>  [6/17/2004 @ 23:56]  (0/0)
• The oath of Finrod is viewed as noble  <Finrod Felagund 5>  [6/16/2004 @ 14:01]  (1/1)
• Extremely well put F.F.  (No Text)  <Penthe>  [6/16/2004 @ 18:45]  (0/0)
• Having read all the earlier messages  <Entmaiden>  [6/15/2004 @ 23:05]  (2/4)
• Re. Entmaiden  <2ndcreator>  [6/16/2004 @ 18:31]  (0/0)
• In response  <2ndcreator>  [6/16/2004 @ 18:03]  (1/2)
• Well, I think you want to consider why  <Entmaiden>  [6/16/2004 @ 22:11]  (1/1)
• All good points, but  <2ndcreator>  [6/17/2004 @ 21:28]  (0/0)
• I don't have a brilliant idea but I wanted to point out  <Rhiandra Took>  [6/15/2004 @ 19:30]  (1/22)
• Motivation  <2ndcreator>  [6/15/2004 @ 19:32]  (1/21)
• not a good thing?  <eowyn_rohan>  [6/15/2004 @ 19:38]  (1/20)
• To eowyn_rohan  <2ndcreator>  [6/15/2004 @ 19:52]  (4/19)
• Make sure you take into account the final oath  <hatster>  [6/16/2004 @ 7:16]  (1/1)
• James 5  <2ndcreator>  [6/16/2004 @ 18:07]  (0/0)
• Thanks for sharing..  <eowyn_rohan>  [6/16/2004 @ 1:46]  (0/0)
• Mixed feelings?  <N.E. Brigand>  [6/15/2004 @ 20:11]  (1/3)
• re. Mixed Feelings  <2ndcreator>  [6/15/2004 @ 20:20]  (1/2)
• The nature of oaths in LOTR  <Liath>  [6/15/2004 @ 21:17]  (1/1)
• Re. Liath  <2ndcreator>  [6/16/2004 @ 18:25]  (0/0)
• good oaths vs bad oaths  <Penthe>  [6/15/2004 @ 20:03]  (1/11)
• My main point  <2ndcreator>  [6/15/2004 @ 20:09]  (3/10)
• I'd like to hear more  <2ndcreator>  [6/16/2004 @ 18:33]  (0/0)
• Oh, well, that's OK then :-)  <Penthe>  [6/15/2004 @ 20:57]  (0/0)
• Not unreasonable.  <N.E. Brigand>  [6/15/2004 @ 20:18]  (2/7)
• re. unreasonable  <2ndcreator>  [6/15/2004 @ 20:25]  (1/5)
• Yet Yahweh's covenant w/ Abraham is a type of oath...  <aragonvaar>  [6/16/2004 @ 12:19]  (1/4)
• Nice try  <2ndcreator>  [6/16/2004 @ 18:11]  (2/3)
• And be careful about throwing "folly" around as ...  <aragonvaar>  [6/17/2004 @ 15:06]  (0/0)
• Of course he was a Christian...  <aragonvaar>  [6/17/2004 @ 14:20]  (1/1)
• Consider all sides  <2ndcreator>  [6/17/2004 @ 21:24]  (0/0)
• Great point  <2ndcreator>  [6/15/2004 @ 20:21]  (0/0)

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