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Nick: Entwife Wandlimb (Registered User)
Date/Time: Fri, 4/16/2004 at 1:38 EDT (Thu, 4/15/2004 at 21:38 PST)
Browser/OS: Microsoft Internet Explorer V6.0 using Windows 98
In Reply To: Why did the Elvenking have dungeons?  <Curious>  [4/15/2004 @ 17:01]  (12/32)
Subject:
dungeon - word history and thoughts
Message:

I vote for the POW theory.  Still, I think this points out another way in which these elves are more like men than not.  (Sorry if you've already talked about this, I haven't been able to keep up this week.)  In particular, I think the butler and the chief of the guards are like men in that they get drunk and steal the king's wine.  I also wonder why they aren't speaking in elvish?  Why can Bilbo understand what is being said?

I looked up "dungeon" to see if I was missing an obscure meaning, but I don't think so.  I think when JRRT said "dungeon" he meant "prison" and not "the secure main tower of a castle" or "keep."

FYI -

Encarta World English Dictionary
1. prison cell: a prison cell, often underground, especially beneath a castle
2. castle keep: the secure main tower of a castle ( archaic )
[14th century. Via Old French donjon  “castle keep” (later “secure underground cell”) from, ultimately, Latin dominus  “lord” (source of English danger and dominion).]

The American Heritage Dictionary, 2000
The word dungeon may have gone down in the world quite literally, if one etymology of the word is correct.
Dungeon may go back to a Medieval Latin word, domni, meaning “the lord's tower,” which came from Latin dominus, “master.” In Middle English, in which our word is first recorded in a work composed around the beginning of the 14th century, it meant “a fortress, castle” and “the keep of a castle,” as well as “a prison cell underneath the keep of the castle.” Dungeon can still mean “keep,” although the usual spelling for this sense is donjon, but the meaning most usually associated with it is certainly not elevated. It is also possible that dungeon goes back to a Germanic word related to our word dung. This assumed Germanic word would have meant “an underground house constructed of dung.” If this etymology is correct, the word dungeon has ended up where it began.

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Letter 27: I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of ‘fairy’ rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and ‘elvish’; hair short . . .’

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