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Nick: Narf (Registered User)
Date/Time: Fri, 1/16/2004 at 2:33 EDT (Thu, 1/15/2004 at 22:33 PST)
Browser/OS: Microsoft Internet Explorer V6.0 using Windows NT 5.1
In Reply To: Durin’s Folk #23: Far-Stretched Hand of Sauron  <Daughter of Nienna>  [1/15/2004 @ 18:26]  (3/4)
Subject:
Black, white, gray
Message:

1. Attack on Dol Guldur "… Gandalf had at last prevailed upon Saruman and the White Council to attack Dol Guldur". Q: Did Gandalf try before to convince the Saruman and the White Council to attack Dol Guldur? Why did it take so long to decide to attack?

Gandalf had long urged attack, otherwise it would be misleading to say "at last prevailed." Saruman wanted to keep his options open. Maybe by observing activities around Dol Guldur he'd gain clues as to the whereabouts of the Ring.

2. Secure in Mordor: "went to Mordor, there to be secure, as he thought, from all his enemies.". Secure from whom? What about Mordor, besides the obvious mountains, would provide security for him? Isn’t he closer to his enemies?

A Nazgul fortress, some Orc-filled outposts, a really big tower, an active volcano under his control, easy access to the friendly east and south.

3. Sauron’s Right Hand: far-stretched right hand Sauron might have done great evil in the North. Q: What evil? What would the North look like with Sauron in Power of it?

The North with Sauron in charge would probably look a lot like the rest of the world with Sauron in charge. I don't see a lot of room for individual or cultural differenses under the Dark Lord.

4. Brand and Dáin: "if King Dáin and King Brand had not stood in his path" How good of allies were they at this time? Was this an alliance of necessity or true friendship? How was the relationship of the Dwarves of Erebor and Men of Dale by the time of the War of the Ring?

I think they became very good friends once that nasty dragon was out of the way. I seem to remember Gimli complimenting their baking at some point.

5. Go King Dáin!: "It was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand  before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell." A dwarf defending the body of a dead man to the death! Any thoughts on this image? He has become my favorite Dwarf after Gimli! Do you see him as a mighty hero?

A nice example of courage and loyalty in the face of great danger and major differences.

6. Gandalf: "… now we hear that Dáin has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here. I should call that a heavy loss" Me too!. How heavy is it: to Dwarves, to Men, to middle-earth?

It seems like just about every pre-War leader in the known world falls in the War of the Rings or in a year or so before or after. It really is the end of an age.

7. Sauron: Chicken or the Egg: (These thoughts and questions have been following me around that I don’t have a conclusion for yet.)

According to the myth Sauron is a being unto himself more or less. A being to fear as an enemy. An enemy that periodically gets defeated, but never really goes away.

Questions for consideration: Does he regain power because evil is growing within the beings of Middle-earth? Another way to put it might be: is he a sort of ‘out-growth’ of Middle-earth inhabitants evil choices and actions (evil as Tolkien uses it)? Or, at the least, perhaps, he is allowed to be and flourish due through neglect and vigilance against the forces of evil within themselves as well as without!? I have come to believe that it is not just a force of evil outside but within as well. That it was not just Sauron creating all the trouble as some ‘force over there’  but also the choices and actions of the inhabitants of middle-earth that allow for the ‘spirit of Sauron to endure’. Like the Ring, it is both at the same time. Not just one or the other. That it is not so black & white as good versus evil in such extreme terms. Any thoughts or UUTs of similar or thought or of opposing thought regarding Sauron and the source of evil?

The kind of mythic story Tolkien wanted to tell required an external embodiment of evil, and it's not a complex one. His continued existence and growing strength into the Third Age is the result of bad choices by powerful people, but it's not like holding hands and thinking happy thoughts is going to make him go away now. Sauron exists, has a will of his own, and is evil because that's what he is. Whatever moral and psychological complexity the book has lies in the ways its heroes react to the presence of evil. There are many shades of gray, but there is also black and white.

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