IGN.com TheOneRing.net Newbie Guide
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Lord of the Rings - J.R.R. Tolkien

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Links
Home
The Movies
Spy Reports
Features
Barlimans
Discussion
Main
Reading Room
Movie Discussion
The Arena
Gaming
Feedback
Fan Section
Gaming Havens
Green Books
Community
Shop
Newbie Guide
Archives
Site Info
TBHL

<<< - << Prev | Reading Room | Next >> - >>>
Message Thread - Collate Replies - Post a Reply - FAQ

Nick: Hama of Rohan (Registered User)
Date/Time: Thu, 10/2/2003 at 16:49 EDT
Browser/OS: Microsoft Internet Explorer V5.5 using Windows NT 5.0
In Reply To: Valinor: Legolas goes but Arwen can't?  <Olathien>  [9/30/2003 @ 22:28]  (8/26)
Subject:
Here's my NPT
Message:

ahem - I hope that is not too presumptuous of me to coin a new phrase: "Neatly Packaged Theory" ;)

Arwen makes her choice to "plight her troth" with Aragorn, cleaving to him and all that...

And when she marries him, she becomes mortal.  Hence her words that no ship can bear her thence - not that there NO ships that *can*.  Cirdan is still there manning the Grey Havens checking the manifests and passenger lists.

My feeling is that when she makes her choice both the Valar and Iluvatar make the 'tick mark' next to her name that says "Choice: mortal"

Which solves the issue of her children as well - who we know to be mortal and with no choice themselves.

Here are some of the relevant excerpts from Tolkien's Letters:
"Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices. Arwen is not a `re-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she `makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told; they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
From Letter 153

"But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressea - but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."
From Letter 154

And another I found in a footnote:
"He (Frodo) appears at first to have had no sense of guilt; he was restored
to sanity and peace[after the Quest - "Hama's" comment].  But then he thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon.  But he did not, and one can observe the disquiet growing in him.
Arwen was the first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for
comfort, and thought of a way of healing him. *

*(comment at bottom of page)It is not explicit how she could arrange this.
She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that!
For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority', and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men.  Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange."
Letter 246

So, it would seem that Tolkien is implying a quite real 'change of state' with Arwen's choice which would reconcile well with the idea that she did indeed become mortal and so solve the issue of her words to Aragorn and to her children.

Consitencies may remain, but that seems to be the 'best fit' for me - and with all things in Tolkien's mythology - there are exceptions.

Hama - digger of clues

Password to delete message:  



TheOneRing.net Rumour Mill's RPGBoard script (V2.22) was created by Brendan Byrd/SineSwiper of Resonator Software.  It is copylefted under the conditions of the GNU Public License (GPL).  It can be freely distributed and modified as long as it retains its GPL status. 


home | contact us | back to top | site map | search | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 2000 TheOneRing®.net. TheOneRing® is a registered service mark with exclusive right to grant use assigned to The One Ring, Inc. Unique Design by DesignHeroes.com