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Nick: Celandine Brandybuck (Registered User)
Date/Time: Sun, 6/15/2003 at 21:24 EDT (Sun, 6/15/2003 at 18:24 PDT)
Browser/OS: Mozilla Browser V5.0-rv:1.3 (03/12/2003 build) using Windows dows NT 5.1
Subject:
IV.5.  The Window on the West – 14.  Summary/wrap-up
Message:

Whew.  Goodness, a lot of interesting comments made on this chapter.  I will try to very briefly sum up what was said regarding each of the posts – apologies if I over-simplify!

The question of whether the opening scene was a trial or not brought a lot of different opinions: some thought it an interrogation, a “show cause” hearing, or even just a conversation.  Most people seem to have never seriously doubted Faramir’s quality, even the first time they read it.

Two primary suggestions were made for how Faramir and Denethor could have heard Boromir’s horn all the way from Rauros to Minas Tirith – one, that there was some sort of psychic connection between the the men, and two, that there was some magical quality associated with the horn itself that could cause it to be heard over far greater distances than an ordinary instrument.

Regarding Faramir’s recognition of Frodo’s brooch as the same craftsmanship as Boromir’s belt, a number of people pointed out that the belt was the only unfamiliar item, so naturally Faramir would have taken note of it.  The emphasis on memory in a semi-literate society was also mentioned.  Personally, I remain unconvinced, but perhaps my memory for visual details is simply not as good as most.

In general no one seems to have thought that Tolkien made Denethor a steward rather than a king for simple plot purposes.  Consensus here was apparently that the idea of stewardship played into the mythical aspects of the story, with a king able to claim a vacant throne and thereby heal the land.  It also gives the stewards the opportunity to prove their trust – when a previous king of the north tried to claim the throne, that claim was rejected.  Only when the destined true king, Aragorn, arrives, will he be able to take the throne.

Most people thought that Faramir had previously recognized Gandalf as a wizard (though he didn’t use the term “wizard” in conversation with Frodo), but equated that with lore-master, not realizing all the abilities Gandalf had.  The fireworks that so impressed the Hobbits of the Shire were generally agreed to not be the “wonderful things” Gandalf did in Gondor; a knowledge of ancient lore and perhaps a bit of prediction were thought to have been the more likely things that impressed locally.

I was glad to find that my understanding that Tolkien spoke in Faramir’s voice in rejecting war for its own sake was backed up by everyone else.  There were some interesting side-comments on the poetic language that Faramir uses to describe Minas Tirith, as well.

The civility at Henneth Annûn brought in a lot of commentary about both the past history of Númenor and Gondor which are reflected in this part of the chapter.  We were reminded that Ithilien is not exactly wild, that it was only recently abandoned completely, and that the cave was deliberately designed as a refuge.  The Standing Silence in particular was remarked on as one of the very few instances of anything like a religious ritual in Middle-earth.

The desire for deathlessness, and the negative consequences resulting from that, were pretty well agreed on as significant themes in Tolkien’s writing, although some thought them more obvious than others.  Aragorn’s willingness to lay down his life was indeed an indicator that he was the true king.

I hoped to bring out some slightly different takes on necessity, but the discussion focused primarily on the necessity of war (perhaps inevitable given the way I phrased the question).  Comments here included the point that Tolkien urged that war should not be glorified for its own sake, and that he respected the alternative of pacifism as exemplified by Bombadil (and Frodo, at the very end) as well as war well-fought for a righteous end.  I wonder, still, whether we can say if the ends ever justified the means, for Tolkien or in Middle-earth?

Regarding the Elves, there was general agreement that the estrangement between Elves and Men was necessary to Tolkien’s conception of each race, with death as the critical dividing line between them.  Despite the several Elf-Man marriages, it seems that the two cannot ultimately be reconciled and achieve a complete understanding of each other.  The tangential remarks here on free will and on whether the Elves were “fallen” in a spiritual sense brought out some very different points of view on those matters!

The fact that Faramir never actually sees the Ring, and that he had grown up never expecting to wield significant power, were cited as some of the reasons why he might not have been tempted to take the Ring from Frodo.  But it was pretty well agreed that there was a test going on; NZStrider repeated a point-by-point comparison of this scene with Faramir with the scene back in Bree, when the Hobbits first met Strider, that seemed to me to clinch the case.

Thanks, everyone, for participating in the discussion!  I didn’t respond to a lot of posts – I was giving and grading final exams and papers all week, unfortunately – but I read them with great interest and enjoyed all the different ideas that were put forth.  Cheers!

Celandine Brandybuck

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