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Nick: Curious (Registered User)
Date/Time: Wed, 4/30/2003 at 15:07 EDT (Wed, 4/30/2003 at 13:07 CST)
Browser/OS: Netscape Communicator V4.7 using Windows 95
In Reply To: The Voice of Saruman #8:  Theoden’s Response  <lumpkin>  [4/30/2003 @ 13:25]  (5/9)
Subject:
My thoughts.
Message:

Q. Theoden says he’s worried about his faltering feet, but of more concern is the potential for his mind to falter.  Does Theoden possess the strength of will to successfully confront Saruman alone? If Gandalf had not been there, would things have gone differently?  Was Gandalf actually doing anything to aid Theoden?

A.  I doubt that Gandalf was intefering.  He may have been watching to make sure Saruman did not simply cast a spell of some kind, beyond the natural spell of his Voice.  But Gandalf seems confident that Theoden will not succumb to the Voice alone now that Saruman's schemes have been exposed.  Nevertheless, it did take an effort on Theoden's part, perhaps because of his anger, but more likely because Saruman's Voice does have some supernatural effect.

Q.  I don’t have any other formal queries here, so I invite any other comments/points that you would like to make about Saruman’s words to Theoden.

A.  This is a moment of high "applicability," as Tolkien would put it, to the "real" world.  Particularly the phrases: "The friendship of Saruman and the power of Orthanc cannot be lightly thrown aside, whatever grievances, real or fancied, may lie behind" and "But if I am a murderer on that account, then all the house of is stained with murder; for they have fought many wars, and assailed many who defied them." 

In his letters to his sons, and in the forward to the second edition of LotR, Tolkien says that in the real world there is much evil on both sides of any war, and many deals with the devil made for political purposes, and that the Ring would undoubtedly have been used in such a war, and the hobbits ignored or enslaved.  I believe that Tolkien reacted strongly to any attempt to interpret LotR as an allegory, or as topical, because Tolkien wrote it as a stark CONTRAST to topical events, an alternative world where the good guys live by a clear moral code. 

And yet the contrasts between LotR and the events of the first half of the 20th century DO, in a backhanded way, comment on topical events -- and not favorably.  

Q.  However, I do find the dialog rich in irony and barely veiled hostility.  I would be interested in hearing about everyone’s favorite moments in this dialog…for ex:

A.  I like Saruman best when he expresses his honest opinion of Theoden:

"'Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs? Too long have they escaped the gibbet themselves. But the noose comes, slow in the drawing, tight and hard in the end. Hang if you will!'"

Q.  Saruman makes many vituperative comments in this chapter.  Unlike myself, he always seems to have the right  put-down at the tip of his tongue.   Our heroes get a few zingers in there too, though.  And the best verbal-slam award goes to……?

A.  For my part, I would give the award to Theoden for "what will you say of your torches in Westfold and the children that lie dead there?"  Note that Saruman does not respond to that particular charge.

Q.  Likewise, Saruman’s cajoling and his diatribes are over-the-top with irony.  (Ex:  Saruman’s assertion, “Much have I desired to see you, mightiest of kings of western lands, and especially in these latter years, to save you from the unwise and evil counsels that beset you!” being my favorite.)  Any other favorite examples that illustrate to you the warped reasoning of our twisted wizard or that especially reveal the depths of his treachery?

A.  You picked the best example.  I would give second place honors to: "Despite the injuries that have been done to me, in which the men of Rohan, alas! have had some part, still I would save you, and deliver you from the ruin that draws nigh inevitably, if you ride upon this road which you have taken."


________________________________________

"‘I think he was a silly little man,' said Councillor Tompkins.  ‘Worthless, in fact; no use to Society at all.'

"‘Oh, I don't know,' said Atkins, who was nobody of importance, just a schoolmaster.  ‘I am not so sure: it depends on what you mean by use .'

"‘No practical or economic use,' said Tompkins.  . . .

. . .

"‘It is proving very useful indeed,' said the Second Voice.  ‘As a holiday, and a refreshment.  It is splendid for convalescence; and not only for that, for many it is the best introduction to the Mountains.  It works wonders in some cases.  I am sending more and more there.  They seldom have to come back.'"

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