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Nick: Doorwarden of Theoden (Registered User)
Date/Time: Wed, 4/30/2003 at 14:19 EDT (Wed, 4/30/2003 at 13:19 CDT)
Browser/OS: Microsoft Internet Explorer V6.0 using Windows NT 4.0
In Reply To: The Voice of Saruman # 9:  Gibbets and Crows  <lumpkin>  [4/30/2003 @ 13:26]  (9/14)
Subject:
one of the best parts!
Message:

1)  How is Theoden’s casting aside of Saruman’s offer really interpreted by his men—a sign of failure or power?

Tolkien makes a strong effort in his books to show that the men are not just "the men." There are strong ones and weak ones and not all react to the enemy in the same way. When he describes Saruman's voice he says that none were unmoved, but I'm sure that some were swayed completely, those being the ones that cry out when Theoden says "we will have peace," while others were disconcerted, and probably most were just confused. The men who are completely swayed will think that Theoden's refusal will be a failure to resist the insidious offers of Gandalf, while those who are disconcerted at first will be relieved that he resisted the insidious offers of Saruman. The ones who are just confused, the foot soldiers (particularly Erkenbrand's who have been out of the current loop until just a day ago) who have no political inside knowledge,  are probably only aware that there is some mix-up concerning current allies, and don't know whether or not to be relieved by Theoden's refusal. I would hazard a guess, though, that when they see what an effort it is for Theoden to say what he says they will be relieved that he made the right decision. Especially when dealing with wizards, I would be worried if someone seems to resist the bad guy so easily. It shouldn't be easy, and if it is, then the bad guy is not the one you're resisting.

2)  When Theoden opens with, “We will have peace…” were you fooled as to his intentions—even for just a moment?  (I just personally have to add that I found this to be one of the best “fake-outs” in the book.  On my first read, I read the first line of Theoden’s reply, and put the book down, aghast.  “Gandalf misjudged him.  Theoden will turn on them!” Clever, clever Tolkien)

yeah, I was fooled, but I expected that Gandalf would make it all right. Even thought LOTR is not a big action-adventure thing, it is an epic, and major plot-points do not come from parlies. That, of course, would imply that evil can be reasoned with, and Tolkien shows us each time there is a parly that it can't.

3)  Wormtongue is surely listening just inside the balcony. What was the effect of this conversation on him?  Was he duped by Saruman too, or a willing partner?

I have a sneaking suspicion that Saruman's voice loses its potency after a long time.  Probably Grima was seduced by him at first but then found himself too far enmeshed in Saruman's webs to escape once the effect began to wear off. And even if such a suspicion is not the case, we see that it is an effort for him to keep it going and he needs to concentrate, which he can't keep up all the time. Whatever the case may be, I would say that already Grima hates Saruman (remember how he can't decide whom to throw the palantir at) and the parly, in which Saruman attempts to ensnare the king whom Grima loved and was trusted by long ago, makes Grima hate Saruman even more, but it doesn't cause any significant change in how Grima thinks of him.

4) The fits and spurts of Saruman’s temper are revealing. He takes vicious barbs at Gimli, Eomer and now, Theoden.  What does this reveal (to Gandalf) about his current state as the parley now turns towards him?

Saruman is getting worried. The reference to the claw of Mordor being stretched out is a reminder to him that he's playing a double game and failing badly at least on one front.

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   Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved. Let those that cursed my name, curse me still, and whine their way back to the cages of the Valar! Let the ships burn!'

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