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Message Thread - Collate Replies - Post a Reply - FAQ

Nick: Watson (Forum Admin)
Date/Time: Sat, 11/16/2002 at 9:37 EDT (Sat, 11/16/2002 at 8:37 CDT)
Browser/OS: Microsoft Internet Explorer V6.0 using Windows NT 5.1
In Reply To: Power of immortality, the trees and the Rings.  <Daughter of Nienna>  [11/16/2002 @ 5:33]  (1/4)
Subject:
But how does that relate....
Message:

...to the question that was asked?  Listing examples of raw information about the two characters does not draw a conclusion as to who of the two had greater power.  The conclusion that can be drawn from the information you list is that among her own people, Galadriel is a person of rank and influence, and among his own people, Olorin/Gandalf quite likely is the same, being specifically of the people of Manwe (and Tolkien does repeatedly mention that Olorin was drawn to and became one of the people of Manwe; only once is Varda/Elbereth mentioned, and that in the listing in Unfinished Tales of who essentially sent the various Istari).  Yet does the social stature of an Elf among her own people equal that of a Maia among his?  One can presume that since the Elves respected the Ainur and held them in reverence, they would tend to defer to them and consider them their social superiors, but possibly not (certainly Feanor did not, at least in the latter parts of his life; one does not repeatedly defy those whom one respects).

Tolkien states that some of the Elves (Glorfindel in particular, I believe) had through experience and learning come to be almost the equal of the Maiar, but I believe he was referring specifically to a degree of "sanctity," since he was speaking of Glorfindel not as he had been in the First Age, but as he came to be after his time in the Halls of Waiting, and after his release (when he was returned to a state of "primitive innocence," as Tolkien calls it, the spiritual state of the Elves at their beginning rather than after many years of incarnate life and exposure to the evils of Melkor).  And sociologically speaking, there is a qualitative difference between the societies of the Eldar and the Maiar.  The Eldar are their own people, the First Born of the Children of Iluvatar, whereas the Maiar are and were created to be essentially servants, second to the Valar and apparently meant to be their "hands."  What little we know of Maia society and their perception of their position in the greater scheme of things would seem to indicate that they are, and know themselves to be -- and generally accept -- that they are second to the Valar.  A few seem to have been total renegades (Ungoliant, if she was indeed a Maia, appears to have no allegiance to anyone but herself), but most are specifically connected to and a servant or helper of one of the greater powers, the Valar.  Even Sauron and the Balrogs served someone greater than themselves, until Melkor himself was destroyed and Sauron essentially "took the throne" of his defeated master.  So it would seem that in Valinor, although the Elves would very likely have great reverence for the Maiar for what they are, the Maiar themselves would not necessarily consider themselves their social superiors.

In terms of other power, the Ainu and Eldar immortality are not quite the same.  The Eldar are immortal specifically within the confines of Arda; their lives and spirits are bound to it, and they cannot pass beyond it, as do the spirits of Men.  The Ainur are immortal, but they are confined to Arda only because of an agreement made with Eru when they left the Timeless Halls and entered the physical world to help with its shaping, that they would remain within the circles of the world until the End (Gandalf being the one exception: when he died after his battle with the Balrog, his spirit wandered "out of time and thought," which Tolkien says clearly means he left the circles of the world, since Arda, Valinor included, exists within time.  The implication, given that Tolkien also says it was Eru who accepted his sacrifice and sent him back, is that he went directly to Eru, in some fashion).  They are immortal in a different fashion, since for them, an incarnate state is an adopted convenience and not their natural form; for the Elves, it is, and the loss of that physical state diminishes them.  It seems that the Ainur, while they are more impressive to lesser beings while in a physical form, are actually more powerful without it, since the creation of even a self-incarnate body requires an expenditure of power, and thus weakens them.

Once in Valinor, the Rings are not an issue in any way.  They were a matter of Middle-earth; their fates were bound there.  Prior to her first departure to Middle-earth, Galadriel did not have one; that she was born in the Bliss of Valinor and saw the light of the Trees may have increased her power among the Elves in Middle-earth, but what made Valinor blissful and undying was the power of the spirits who lived there -- the Ainur in general, and specifically the Valar.  She had been there far less time than Olorin, who was himself one of those powers, and had been in that land from its beginning (which, if I'm recalling Tolkien's commentary about the count of years and time correctly, would have been many thousands of years, by our reckoning).

Every one of the Ainur in his or her own nature reflected some portion of Eru's thought and knew it best, but Olorin certainly seems to have gotten around and learned a great deal more than is typical: Eonwe was the herald of Manwe and mightiest of the Maiar in battle, Osse and Uinen served Ulmo in the seas and appear to control the tempers of the waters; Arien guides the Sun, Tilion the Moon -- but Olorin, who was of the people of Manwe, was also the greatest pupil of Nienna and the counsellor of Irmo, spent time among the Eldar acting unobstrusively or invisibly as a source of guidance and inspiration, and by at least one account was "the secret enemy" of Melkor during the First Age.  It would seem he had indeed earned his reputation as the wisest of the Maiar, since he got around enough and experienced enough to have acquired considerable knowledge and wisdom.  It would not seem that he completely limited himself to the service or understanding of any one specific person or thing, save Eru.

Galadriel, in her turn, did at length acquire her own wisdom and understanding, even of peoples other than her own (her words and kindness to Gimli in Lothlorien make it evident that she has not remained narrowly focused solely upon the interests of the Elves, which is definitely to her credit, especially as her people in Middle-earth diminish and become more limited in their vision and ambitions).  But again, once in Valinor, she is within a different society where she no longer has the status she had built for herself in Middle-earth, and the power she wielded through Nenya is gone, as the power of all the Rings ended with the destruction of the One Ring.

There is one other point that is interesting to note in terms of comparing Galadriel and Gandalf and their relative power, even in Middle-earth.  In Letter 246, Tolkien discusses the question of what would have happened had one of the more powerful persons in Middle-earth claimed Sauron's Ring and attempted to use it against him to defeat him:  "Of the others [Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn, etc.] only Gandalf might be expected to master him -- being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.  In the 'Mirror of Galadriel,' it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord.  If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.  But this is another matter.  It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.  But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council.  Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.  In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force.  Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.  One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position.  It would be a delicate balance.  On one side, the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors.  If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever.  But the Ring and all its works would have endured.  It would have been the master in the end."

By the information given in this passage, it seems clear to me that Tolkien did not consider the Elves to be of the same level of "power" as the Maiar -- only another Maia stood even a chance of defeating Sauron in a direct contest of power; the Elves could not have hoped to win such a battle, even with the Ring.  Thus, at least in that aspect of power, we get a clear indication that if there is a hierarchy in Tolkien's mind, the Maiar were indeed more powerful than the Eldar.  One would suspect this to be even more the case in Valinor, where the Elves no longer had the "artificial" enhancement of Ring power to support them, and the Istari, once home, would no longer continue to be fettered by the restrictions laid upon them by their mission in Middle-earth.

Oh my, this went on longer than I'd intended.  Too early in the morning for this, especially after three days of the flu. :)

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