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Nick: Curious (Registered User)
Date/Time: Tue, 10/1/2002 at 16:43 EDT (Tue, 10/1/2002 at 14:43 CST)
Browser/OS: Netscape Communicator V4.7 using Windows 95
In Reply To: Can I answer to both your responses here?  <NZ Strider>  [10/1/2002 @ 15:38]  (1/5)
Subject:
I object to
Message:

. . . your conclusion that Frodo failed because he used the Ring on Gollum.  I would say, as Tolkien did, that it was "quite impossible for [Frodo] to surrender the Ring, in act or will, especially at its point of maximum power, but that this failure was adumbrated from far back."  (Letter 191.)  Indeed we know from the beginning that Frodo cannot even throw the Ring into a ordinary fire that he knows will have no effect, let alone throw it into the Cracks of Doom!

Thus to the extent that Frodo succumbed to the temptation to use the Ring on Gollum, I see it as an inevitable result of bearing the Ring, and not as the reason that he ultimately failed.  And I continue to believe that Frodo did not unambiguously use the Ring on Gollum, that the ambiguity was deliberate, and that the correct answer to the question of whether Frodo used the Ring is both yes and no (which also happens to be Tolkien's answer, although in two different places).

One way of interpreting Sam's two visions is that in the first vision, Frodo uses the Ring, in the second, the Ring uses Frodo.  But another equally valid way of interpreting it is that in BOTH cases it is the Ring that is using Frodo -- it is just more obvious in the second.

I really don't think you should make too much of the Wagnerian connection, considering Tolkien's express disavowal.

I think my disagreement with you is one of nuances, not basics.  I agree that Frodo could be said to have used the Ring to daunt Gollum, but I also agree with Watson and others that he could be said not to have used the Ring.  And again, Tolkien says both!  I hate to sound like a lawyer, and yet it really does depend what you mean by "use."

________________________________________

"‘I think he was a silly little man,' said Councillor Tompkins.  ‘Worthless, in fact; no use to Society at all.'

"‘Oh, I don't know,' said Atkins, who was nobody of importance, just a schoolmaster.  ‘I am not so sure: it depends on what you mean by use .'

"‘No practical or economic use,' said Tompkins.  . . .

. . .

"‘It is proving very useful indeed,' said the Second Voice.  ‘As a holiday, and a refreshment.  It is splendid for convalescence; and not only for that, for many it is the best introduction to the Mountains.  It works wonders in some cases.  I am sending more and more there.  They seldom have to come back.'"

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