assent & query

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Message Thread - Collate Replies - Post a Reply - FAQ

Nick:	Froda (Registered User)
Date/Time:	Tue, 10/1/2002 at 10:57 EDT
Browser/OS:	Microsoft Internet Explorer V6.0 using Windows NT 5.0
In Reply To:	Here's what Tolkien himself said: <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 6:46] (7/23)
Subject:	assent & query
Message:
I haven't read Treason of Isengard, NZS, but your interpretation of the encounter between Frodo & Smeagol/Gollum has always been how I've understood that passage in LotR. Hadn't even realized that there was a point of controversy until reading others' interesting responses. No doubt I'll now become hopelessly confused :) And I love the Nibelungen quote ... whatever Tolkien felt about Wagner & his sources, it's completely apt. Query, though: what exactly is it about the Ring that enables it to act as an "agent" of enslavement? What's the, um, mechanism? It seems that it's not simply the Ring's nature as Sauron's product, into which he's poured his will etc ... since wielding the Ring probably has this effect on Sauron himself. Is it a claim (by Tolkien) about the workings of power & evil - that its effects in the world redound upon the creator and bind him or her even more closely? A vicious circle as it were? Or...?

Message Thread:

Answers/opinions needed on Frodo's use of the Ring: NZ_Strider: you commented on this once; others also welcome... <mallorn-ws> [9/30/2002 @ 19:51] (7/58)

I am truly indebted to you all for your great efforts <mallorn-ws> [10/1/2002 @ 20:21] (1/1)

who, us, "stubborn"? (smile) (No Text) <Froda> [10/2/2002 @ 9:16] (0/0)

I deeply regret .... <Reverend> [10/1/2002 @ 13:16] (1/6)

objection! <Froda> [10/1/2002 @ 13:44] (1/5)

It's part of my countercase as well. <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 16:06] (1/4)

"You have not weighed the Sinfulness of Sin" <Reverend> [10/1/2002 @ 19:04] (1/3)

This is difficult to respond to... <NZ Strider> [10/2/2002 @ 2:00] (1/2)

I'm sure we'll return to this vexed point <Froda> [10/2/2002 @ 9:01] (1/1)

I take exception... <Watson> [10/2/2002 @ 9:43] (0/0)

Here's what Tolkien himself said: <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 6:46] (7/23)

assent & query <Froda> [10/1/2002 @ 10:57] (2/7)

Supplemental to what Curious says, <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 15:45] (0/0)
I believe, <Curious> [10/1/2002 @ 12:24] (1/5)

Mechanically plausable.... <Reverend> [10/1/2002 @ 15:12] (1/4)

now that's interesting! <Froda> [10/1/2002 @ 15:35] (1/3)

But <Curious> [10/1/2002 @ 16:08] (1/2)

Yes, yes... <Reverend> [10/1/2002 @ 19:11] (1/1)

As <Curious> [10/1/2002 @ 20:04] (0/0)

This is the danger... <Watson> [10/1/2002 @ 9:21] (2/9)

Can I answer to both your responses here? <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 15:38] (1/5)

I object to <Curious> [10/1/2002 @ 16:43] (1/4)

Very quickly, <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 17:07] (1/3)

As you have said... <Watson> [10/1/2002 @ 20:23] (1/2)

I'm sorry if I <NZ Strider> [10/2/2002 @ 3:05] (1/1)

It isn't... <Watson> [10/2/2002 @ 8:50] (0/0)

Tolkien loved ambiguity! <Curious> [10/1/2002 @ 9:50] (1/2)

Niggle's Parish <Amatire> [10/1/2002 @ 10:34] (1/1)

Thanks! I <Curious> [10/1/2002 @ 12:03] (0/0)

And yet <Curious> [10/1/2002 @ 8:46] (0/0)
sheesh <Amatire> [10/1/2002 @ 8:41] (0/0)
Excellent, NZS. <Ataahua> [10/1/2002 @ 7:49] (0/0)
wow <Demosthenes> [10/1/2002 @ 7:17] (0/0)
Corrigenda <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 6:50] (0/0)

Does one have to actually put the ring on... <iowaboy> [9/30/2002 @ 20:48] (1/6)

I think there's a distinction to be made... <Silverlode> [9/30/2002 @ 21:53] (3/5)

Gollum does not promise to the Precious, but *by* the Precious (No Text) <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 6:26] (2/2)

Yes... <Silverlode> [10/1/2002 @ 21:03] (0/0)
swearing <Froda> [10/1/2002 @ 10:41] (0/0)

Nicely said, plus another important factor <Altaira> [9/30/2002 @ 23:48] (0/0)
I think so, for the most part... <iowaboy> [9/30/2002 @ 22:11] (0/0)

nice summary <Demosthenes> [9/30/2002 @ 20:47] (0/0)
Well... <Watson> [9/30/2002 @ 20:15] (4/15)

Hmm... I think I see several things differently from you. <NZ Strider> [10/1/2002 @ 7:17] (1/4)

What I attempted to say... <Watson> [10/1/2002 @ 9:13] (1/3)

i believe that we are in complete agreement... <Reverend> [10/1/2002 @ 15:03] (1/2)

Well... <Watson> [10/1/2002 @ 15:45] (1/1)

Very right.... <Reverend> [10/1/2002 @ 18:48] (0/0)

Another possibility. <Curious> [9/30/2002 @ 21:22] (1/2)

promises promises <Demosthenes> [9/30/2002 @ 21:41] (1/1)

But Frodo doesn't <Curious> [9/30/2002 @ 21:55] (0/0)

Then the difference <Merryk> [9/30/2002 @ 21:00] (2/5)

I wasn't aware that was the question being asked, but... <Watson> [9/30/2002 @ 21:26] (1/2)

Sorry for the tone... <Merryk> [9/30/2002 @ 22:28] (1/1)

Frodo's inheritance... <Watson> [9/30/2002 @ 23:35] (0/0)

Sam holds the Ring... <beren_boy> [9/30/2002 @ 21:09] (1/1)

Sam's desire for the ring <Demosthenes> [9/30/2002 @ 21:15] (0/0)

I agree. (No Text) <beren_boy> [9/30/2002 @ 20:35] (0/0)

Well, i think he used what he could do with the Ring as a threat. <Ufthak> [9/30/2002 @ 20:07] (0/0)

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