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Nick: Curious (Registered User)
Date/Time: Sun, 6/30/2002 at 21:36 EDT (Sun, 6/30/2002 at 19:36 CST)
Browser/OS: Netscape Communicator V4.7 using Windows 95
In Reply To: Lengthy response to Curious' great post on the Hobbits as time-travellers  <NZ Strider>  [6/30/2002 @ 20:01]  (2/10)
Subject:
Welcome back.  Here is my first response.
Message:

I have a trial tomorrow and not enough time to truly ponder your thoughts, but here are my first impressions.

I would prefer to stick to LotR and treat The Hobbit as a separate work.  It can be exciting to compare and contrast the two, but I do think they stand alone and have many differences in style and purpose.

So your examples from LotR are Sam and Aragorn (feet in both worlds), Boromir (old world), and Saruman (modern).  But what about the other people of Gondor and Rohan, or the elves of Lothlorien?  Surely they (least of all the elves) are not in any significant way modern? 

And indeed the better hobbits -- those who do not later league with Saruman -- are not modern in the sense that Tolkien despised.  They are quite conservative, and do not hold with change.  They still follow the King's Rules even though there has been no king for 1000 years.  But they follow tradition out of habit, not out of knowledge.  And in many cases that means they don't hold with anything different -- even if positive.

Isengard and Mordor do not engage in mass production of anything but orcs, and orcs are not machines.  Barad-dur, in particular, and the flaming Eye, And Mordor, and Minas Morgul, and the valley below, and the Nazgul, all have a certain evil beauty to them.  They are not evil and mundane like the robot factories Tolkien hated. 

At the beginning and end of LotR the Shire feels very much like rural England at the end of the 19th century, before the introduction of cars.  As the hobbits leave the Shire the settings feel gradually more ancient, with Lothlorien the most ancient of all.  And when the hobbits come to Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor, the settings continue to feel ancient in human terms, but not in elvish terms.  The hobbits retain their modern vernacular but are schooled in wisdom more ancient than human history.  Aragorn moves smoothly between both worlds.  But the war between Rohan and Saruman or Gondor and Sauron is not a clash of the modern world with the ancient.  It is a clash that takes place as the last age of the elves comes to a close and the first age of men begins.

The machines of the robot age are in some ways far more insidious than those of LotR, for they are mass-produced until they blot out the landscape, and yet always introduced as benefits to mankind.  Electricity, cars, cheap housing -- none of them are intended to kill, maim, or enslave, and yet they have done more to destroy the wilderness than any army.  Whereas none of the machines used by Saruman differ much from those used by the Romans.

The hobbits stay in their 19th century rural vernacular, like first-time time travelers.  Aragorn takes on the vernacular of the land he is in, like an experienced time traveler.  But the people of Rohan and Gondor keep the ancient forms whether they are good, bad, or wavering.

So I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.  I don't think any part of LotR resembles the 20th century.  And I especially don't think any part of Middle-earth south of Moria resembles anything more modern than the Middle-ages.  Indeed I think the whole point was to escape the 20th century entirely. 

This is still rather random and not thoroughly thought through, but I don't have time to ponder it any more.  And because of my trial I don't have time to reply again.  But I will look at this again in three or four days and see what you have said.

If I have been less than tactful in any way, please forgive me.

________________________________________

"‘I think he was a silly little man,' said Councillor Tompkins.  ‘Worthless, in fact; no use to Society at all.'

"‘Oh, I don't know,' said Atkins, who was nobody of importance, just a schoolmaster.  ‘I am not so sure: it depends on what you mean by use .'

"‘No practical or economic use,' said Tompkins.  . . .

. . .

"‘It is proving very useful indeed,' said the Second Voice.  ‘As a holiday, and a refreshment.  It is splendid for convalescence; and not only for that, for many it is the best introduction to the Mountains.  It works wonders in some cases.  I am sending more and more there.  They seldom have to come back.'"

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