|8-23-03 Latest News |
Elvish 101 Lesson 7 Transcript
Demosthenes @ 6:14 am EST
<Annatar> tonite will be the sindarin verb
<GollumsGal> i teach Elvish lessons myself, but i just wanted to see what you guys were teaching
<Lothengriol> Does anyone know if "galen" is singular or plural?
<Lothengriol> Thank you.
<GollumsGal> ur welcome
<Lothengriol> So mirgalen would be green jewel?
<GollumsGal> well, i would say it as galen m”r, personally
<GollumsGal> since it's Sindarin
<Lothengriol> Oh, I thought if it followed it meant "of the.." Thank you again
<GollumsGal> well, according to The Languages of Tolkiens Middle Earth, adjectives go before the word they describe
<jincey> hiya gorlab : )
<GollumsGal> what's that mean?
<jincey> hiya : )
<GollumsGal> what does mode change mean?
<Gorlab> It's a written approximation of a cockney accent...
<GollumsGal> hey, Gorlab, can i ask u a question before the lesson?
<Gorlab> Fire Away...
<GollumsGal> ok. i've never been to any of your lessons before, but i was reading the transcript to lesson 4, and i got confused
<Gorlab> what particular part?
<GollumsGal> on the pronouns
<Gorlab> What confuses you about the pronouns?
<Annatar> Quenya or Sindarin?
<GollumsGal> u see, i teach Elvish myself, and in all my sources, i never found any sentence with -nye as "I"
<GollumsGal> except in utuvienyes
<GollumsGal> but i thought that -yes meant "it"
<Gorlab> -s means "it"
<GollumsGal> at least that's what it says in The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth
<Gorlab> Ruth Noel's?
<Gorlab> Some of the information in Ruth Noel's book has been superceded by information published after her book was....
<Lothengriol> I read that nad tried to learn some, but now hear that it isn't definative
<Gorlab> ...such as the History of Middle earth series and some publications like Vinyar Tengwar and Parma Eldalamberon....
<Gorlab> To answer GollumsGal's question,
<Lothengriol> Wouldn't it be wise to edit it and republish it, rather than earn a bad reputation?
<Gorlab> 1rst person Singular Present tense ("I am")....
<Annatar> I am personally unaware of the author's intention regarding that book, but it appears that the publisher simply couldn't resist
<Gorlab> is made by combining the present tense verb na- ( "is") with the 1rst person singular -nye to caom up with "nanye"
<Gorlab> come up with, excuse me
<GollumsGal> ok, i'm back
<Gorlab> the "ye"portion of -nye can be shortened to just "n"
<Annatar> So it's no precisely a pronoun, but more of "pronomial" ending that does the job of indicating number and person
<Gorlab> making it "nan"
<GollumsGal> yes, ok, i knew that
<GollumsGal> ok, thanks for yur help
<Gorlab> Yes indeed, avatar!
<Gorlab> No problem, GollumsGal...
<Gorlab> Avatar...has it become that time?
<Lothengriol> I'm back, I couldn"t find the etymologies. Now I have the big book out.
<Annatar> ava=go, flee tar=lord
<Gorlab> er...I mean Annatar...
<Gorlab> ava is "don't"
<Annatar> and Gil-Galad would not treat with Annatar...
<Gorlab> Ahem.....Annatar - is it about that time?
<Annatar> Mae govannen y'all
<Annatar> Good evening and thank you for coming
<Gorlab> elen sila lumenn' omentielvo everypeoples!
<jincey> hi y'all : )
<GollumsGal> a na le, mellyn
<Gorlab> Tonight - that wonder of wonders....
<Annatar> Yes, i've already seen the trailer, so let's talk about Verbs!
<Gorlab> (drum roll please)
<Gorlab> SINDARIN VERBS!!!!
<Annatar> let's all hear it for the Sindarin verb!
<Annatar> Happily, some good work has been done concerning the Sindarin verb recently
<Annatar> Helge Faukanger, to whom we so often refer, has done a rather complex derivation based on the theories of david Salo, who did th Movie Sindarin
<Annatar> however, Ryszard Igor Jerzy Derdzinski has simplified it without alteration
<Annatar> so, it is based on information at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm that I'l be basing this lesson
<Annatar> for all you newcomers, Helge is at http://ardalambion.com/
<Annatar> I take that many of you are already familiar with these sources
<Annatar> no is an ok answer too
<Annatar> so, here we go
<GollumsGal> well, with the first, not the other
<Beruthiel> got it now
<Annatar> alright, in both Quenya and Sindarin there are two kinds of verb
<Annatar> They are the Basic and derived verbs
<Annatar> Supposedly, this refers to the structure of [rimitive Elivsh
<Annatar> for our purposes, suffice it to say that they take slighlty different forms
<Annatar> because of their stems
<Annatar> we wil be covering 3 tenses--past, present and future
<Annatar> and 3 moods indicitive, supjunctive, and imperitive
<Annatar> and most confusingly we will deal with continuative vs. aorist senses
<Elessar_T> I gather this will be linguistic heavy
<Annatar> not that bad
<Gorlab> It's not that difficult - everything should be defined and explained...
<Annatar> some of it's harder to discuss than to do
<GollumsGal> what about auxiliary?
<Annatar> none just yet, but many aux. functions are carried out by these senses
<Annatar> for example,
<Annatar> we'll use the example ped-
<Annatar> which is the root for the verb "speak"
<Annatar> the Aorist sense would be "I am (always) speaking"
<Annatar> or "I (as a matter of course) speak
<Annatar> that would be "pedin"
<Elessar_T> just a question (I missed the start), is this Sindarin or Quenya?
<Annatar> but "I am speaking (rigth now) is "pidon"
<Gorlab> We covered Quenya Verbs in lesson 5...
<GollumsGal> so the "tense" is '-o'
<Annatar> ped- is Baic verb, so it gets the vowel change
<Elessar_T> ok, guess I missed that one
<Elessar_T> I see that it's Sindarin now anyway.
<Gorlab> (no prob Elessar....lesson 5 should be posted any time now...)
<Annatar> -on as and ending applies to 1st sing --"I" for both basic and derived verbs
<Annatar> in the continuative (right now) sense
<Maeglin_Lomion> So the difference between "ped" and "pid" is perpetual vs. immediate?
<GollumsGal> ok, but if it didn't have I as a subject?
<Annatar> endings soon
<GollumsGal> ok, sorry
<Annatar> pidon=continuative pedin= Aorist
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Annatar> but let's look at those endings shall we?
<Gorlab> Yes, yes! Let's!
<GollumsGal> yes, let's
<Annatar> to begin with the continuative, it's "pidon" and "pidam" for 1st person
<Annatar> singular and plural
<Annatar> that becomss "pidoch" and "pidach" for 2nd person familiar in sing and pl
<Annatar> "Pidol" and "pidal" for 2nd person Formal
<Annatar> and "pida" and "pidar" for 3rd person in Singular and plural
<Annatar> So, "we are speaking (now)" is "pidam"
<Annatar> "he/she/it is speaking now" is "pida"
<Annatar> dow this make sense?
<GollumsGal> yes, it does
<Elessar_T> it does to me
<Annatar> Let's now advance to the Aorist
<Annatar> We are still in the present tens, but now we are referring to more or less eternal conditions
<GollumsGal> now, what *does* aorist mean?
<Annatar> The example I have often used is that when my father says "the Yankee's stink" he's only currently disappointed with them
<Gorlab> The aorist, in a way is beyond specific tenses...
<Gorlab> it denotes timeless truths...
<Annatar> however, when some mocks my beloved Cubs by saying "The Cubs stink" they mean that it's and unchanging reality
<Zach> did i miss the elvish lesson?
<Annatar> jsut expling the Aorist sense
<Elessar_T> only the start of it
<Gorlab> "The Cubs stink" is certainly a timeless truth...
<GollumsGal> of course!
<Elessar_T> get back to the sindarin verb, thanks
<Annatar> Now, to form this wonderful sense of the verb, differest rndings apply
<Annatar> endings apply
<Annatar> starting with ped-
<Annatar> we get "pedin" and pedim" for the 1st person sing and pl
<Annatar> notice that the "e" in ped- remains the same
<Annatar> you may also notice that "n" and "m" still end the word
<GollumsGal> so it only becomes "i" for continuative?
<Annatar> exactly, rushing on to 2nd person, we get for 2nd familiar
<Annatar> "pedich" in both Sing and pl
<Annatar> and for 2nd person Formal we have "pedil" for singular and plural
<Annatar> 3rd goes like "pEd" and "pedir" for singular and plural
<Annatar> the "E" indicates an accent (your choice)
<Annatar> so to say "he speaks" in the sense of "he speaks for all of us" you would use "pEd"
<Annatar> still with me?
<GollumsGal> so could that be pŽd?
<Annatar> I guess
<Elessar_T> with you
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> still with you
<Annatar> the important thing is to indicate the long, that is actually lengthened vowel
<GollumsGal> still w/ ya
<Maeglin_Lomion> What was that 2nd character after the p, GollumsGal? I got a square box.
<GollumsGal> e with an accent
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you.
<Annatar> 'cause in Sindarin, the lengthened vowel is considered to be grammatically seperate
<Annatar> Tolkien never quite seemed to decide, so I can't really either
<Elessar_T> accent and cirkumflex can both be applied to a vowel to indicate lengthened sound, right?
<Annatar> now let's try a derived vowel
<Annatar> it means "sing"
<Annatar> now this follows about the same pattern of "ped-"
<GollumsGal> i thought it meant 'chant'
<Elessar_T> sing and chant are quite synonymous, though
<GollumsGal> oh, ok\
<Annatar> BUT, it doesn't have the vowel trans form in the stem that "ped-" does
<GollumsGal> why not?
<Annatar> 'cause it's derived, and, and, well, it's derived?
<Annatar> I don't really know
<Elessar_T> but it is in most cases possible to see the difference between them, right?
<Annatar> but that's the only real reason we're messing around with "derived" vs. "basic," which doesn't really matter other wise
<Annatar> from "linna-" we get "linnom" and "linnam" ind 1st person sing and pl
<Annatar> "linnoch" and "linnach" for 2nd person familiar sing/pl
<Annatar> "linnol" and "linnal" for 2nd pers. sing/pl
<Annatar> and "linna" and "linnar" for 3rd person sing/pl
<Annatar> so it's not really that different
<Elessar_T> why does the 1st person singular end with an "m"? it ended with "n" in basic verbs
<Annatar> sorry bad typing, you are correct
<GollumsGal> ok, whew
<Annatar> it should be "linnon" for 1st
<Elessar_T> ok, typo demons are annoying :(
<Annatar> to get to Aorist, we don't really have to do much else
<Annatar> 1st person Aorist sing/pl is "linnan"/ "linnam"
<Annatar> 2nd person Familiar is "linnach" for sing and pl
<Annatar> 2nd Formal is "linnal" for sing/pl
<Annatar> and for 3rtd it's "liina" and "linnar"
<Annatar> so, the endings and transfor mations should be alittle clearer now
<GollumsGal> what is 3rd singular?
<Elessar_T> how do you pronounce a double vowel? is it long like if it had an accent?
<GollumsGal> oh, k
<Elessar_T> oops sorry
Action: Elessar_T kills Annatar's typo demon
<Annatar> now we'll try to get into the past (tense)
<Gorlab> Yes, yes! Kill the Typo Daemons....
<Annatar> ist's basically an insetions of "-nt" which mutates to "nn" in actual usage
<GollumsGal> what does that mean?
<Annatar> so, going 1st/2ndfam/2ndFormal/3rd we get
<Elessar_T> this goes for both basic and derived verbs?
<Annatar> this is where you see a siligh difference "pennin"/"pennim"
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> what is an insetion?
<GollumsGal> could you like rewind and clarify?
<Elessar_T> insection is between the stem and the ending, right?
<Annatar> insertion, rather
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> oh, ok, thanks
<Annatar> yes, exactly
<Elessar_T> infix is another word for it, I think
<Annatar> for 2nd familiar, we get "pennich" for sing/pl and "linnech" for sing. pl
<Gorlab> It is now Gorlab's time to leave this fine hall...but I hope to see you all next week. Annatar will continue on in fine form as he has been for as long as he can but for me:
<Maeglin_Lomion> Namárië, Gorlab.
<Annatar> for 2nd Formal it's "pennil" and "linnel"
<jincey> : )
<Annatar> and for 3rd, and this is the good part...
<Maeglin_Lomion> What does the root "pen" mean?
<Annatar> ped- is to speak
<Maeglin_Lomion> How did we get to pen from ped?
<Elessar_T> but go on. 3rd person..
<Annatar> beut that -nt just kills the "d" and makes it "n"
<Maeglin_Lomion> OK, thanks.
<GollumsGal> ok, but it is bsorbed by the n in linna?
<Annatar> for "ped-" 3rd sing is "pent" and plural is "pennir"
<Annatar> but for "linna-"
<Annatar> it's "linnant" sing and "linner" ind 3rd person
<GollumsGal> whoa, why?
<Annatar> this is where we see that ped- is a stem that ends in a consonant
<Elessar_T> wait, I see, basic/derived right?
<Annatar> and "linna- is a stem that ends in a vowel
<Annatar> yes, Elessar, thou hast got it
<GollumsGal> uh, Annatar, what would be the root for noro?
<GollumsGal> is it basic or derived?
<Elessar_T> I guess I'm just talented with languages :)
<Annatar> I had hoped to get to the future tense, which also comes in continuative and Aorist senses, but just go to http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm and if you've followed this so far, it shouldn't be too hard
<Annatar> one sec, GG I'd have to look it up
<Annatar> "noro" like in "noro lIm Asfoloth," right?
<Elessar_T> sounds basic to me... but I'm not an expert...
<Annatar> "noro" would be in the imperative, which end is "o"
<Annatar> for basic, just add "o"
<Annatar> for derived substitute "o" for the vowel
<GollumsGal> k, i think got it
<GollumsGal> *i got
<Maeglin_Lomion> As in...pedo and linno?
<Annatar> Thank you all for coming, we'll be back next week