7-30-03 Latest News

Elvish 101 Lesson 5 Transcript
Demosthenes @ 10:23 pm EST

<Gorlab> Wonderful! I suppose I shall begin and those who aren't here soon will be and whoever is going to stop in later can do so then....
<Gorlab> Excellent!
<Demosthenes> hey Annatar
<Gorlab> As you all have probablly surmised our little lessons are actually leading somewhere...
<Gorlab> Soon we will be utilizing past lessons to construct sentences...
<TigerlillyTook> This is my first elvish lesson on here, otherwise I have taught myself what I could. Fyi.
<Gorlab> Well tonight's lesson is all about Verbs...
<Gorlab> We should all understand that from an english point of view...
<Gorlab> (Unless of course you aren't speaking English right now...)
<Gorlab> But of course Verbs denote action....
<Annatar> of various sorts
<Gorlab> Now, we have mentioned in the past some resources for people who really want to learn this kind of thing...
<Gorlab> and one of the most important is Book 5 of "The History of Middle Earth" series...
<Gorlab> because in this book is contained a section entitled "The Etymologies"
<Annatar> also volumes 11 and 12
<Gorlab> and is important because it contains lists of word roots for us to build our parts of speech with...
<Gorlab> The entries for the two Elvish languages Quenya and Sindarin (that we are going over in these lessons)
<Gorlab> are contained within this document...
<Gorlab> The Quenya Verb entries normally follow a consonant-vowel-consonant root/stem formula...
<Gorlab> tul -
<Gorlab> sil -
<Gorlab> etc.
<Gorlab> these verbal root/stems are usually denoted by a hyphen...
<Gorlab> because these words are just begging to have something attatch to them...
<Gorlab> The Verb list comes in two important forms...
<Demosthenes> Okay, i vaguely follow that.
<Gorlab> Non-Derived, or Primary Verbs do NOT end in -ya, -ta, -na, or -a
<Gorlab> Derived, or Secondary Verbs DO end in -ya, -ta, -na, and -a
<Gorlab> for instance
<Gorlab> the root/stem word TUL- is a Primary Verb
<Gorlab> a form of that verb Tulta is a Secondary Verb
<Gorlab> (because it ends in -ta)
<Gorlab> everybody there so far?
<Demosthenes> Example time?
<Four-O-Nine> *nod*
<Gorlab> In the list of Verbs in the document known as "The Etymologies" they appear in these two forms:
<Gorlab> Primary (Not ending in -ta, -ya, na, -a)
<Gorlab> and Secondary (Ending in -ta, -ya, -na, -a)
<Annatar> which means that they are conjugated in different ways
<Gorlab> calya means "to illuminate"
<Gorlab> tulta means "to send for"
<Gorlab> harna means "to wound"
<Gorlab> and "mapa" means "to grasp"
<Gorlab> ALL of these Verbs are Secondary Verbs
<Annatar> let's conjugate one, shall we?
<Gorlab> because they end in -ta, -na, -ya, or -a
<Gorlab> Ok, we'll start with quet-
<Gorlab> quet- means "speak"
<Demosthenes> quendi is derived from it?
<Annatar> same root
<Demosthenes> okay
<Gorlab> (qu kind of stands for a consonant here in our consonant-vowel-consonant form)
<Gorlab> it is a Primary Verb
<Gorlab> because it doesn't end in any of the "a" endings...
<Gorlab> so to conjugate the present tense of the verb...
<Gorlab> we simply add an "a" to it...
<Gorlab> So instead of Quet- "speak"
<Gorlab> We get Queta, "is speaking"
<Gorlab> but we also do one more thing to it...
<Gorlab> We lengthen the pronounciation of the stem-vowel
<Gorlab> so queta becomes quEta...
<Gorlab> (this is shown by an accent mark above the stem-vowel)
<Annatar> lengthening the vowel
<Gorlab> The stem-vowel is the vowel in that consonant-VOWEL-consonant Verb formation we keep mentioning...
<Aredhel> from "e" to "ay"?
<Gorlab> During pronunciation, yes...
<Gorlab> and you'd mark the pronunciation change with the accent mark...
<Annatar> How do you say "I speak"?
<Gorlab> now there is also a form of the verb that doesn't mean doing something, but TO do something....
<Gorlab> I speak?
<Annatar> in Quenya, that is
<Renirk> take the stem of the infinitive and add the first person singular ending
<Annatar> which is...
<Elenath> so we're learning elvish in here?
<Renirk> Queto ?
<Aredhel> yes
<Aredhel> to Elenath
<Aredhel> don't take the time if it's already been covered, but do we have a set of verb endings?
<Annatar> for Quenya grammar got to the old fave http://ardalambion.com/
<Gorlab> I believe "I speak" would be Naquetanye....
<Aredhel> okay thanks
<Catherine> Where does the Na- come form in front of that?
<Gorlab> Sorry...shouldn't have hit enter...
<Gorlab> it should, of course, be Quetanye...
<Catherine> oh, sorry.
<Gorlab> I speak.
<Renirk> Hah
<Annatar> the "o" ending applies to Sindarin
<Annatar> We'll be getting there in a moment
<Annatar> but back to Gorlab...
<Gorlab> now where was I?
<Gorlab> Oh yes...
<Gorlab> The Infinitive!
<Gorlab> add the ending -ie to your verbs...
<Gorlab> to form the infinitive...
<EmeraldSmeagol> all of this is very confusing to me. What is an infinitive?
<Gorlab> If these verbs have final vowels...
<Gorlab> (as all the Secondary ones do)
<Annatar> to be, or not to be
<Renirk> the infinitive is the "to" bit of the verb
<Gorlab> drop them to add this ending....
<Renirk> to eat, to go, etc
<EmeraldSmeagol> ok, got it
<Aeran> to brighten would be kalinie?
<Gorlab> well, what is the root?
<Annatar> Kal-?
<Aredhel> the root, son, the root
<Renirk> don't you form the root from the infinitive, and not vice-versa
<Annatar> exactly
<Annatar> the root is the basic form, not the infinitive
<Gorlab> so if Kal means "brighten"
<Annatar> and the infinitive is derived therefrom
<Demosthenes> Kala?
<Gorlab> then Kalie should be "to brighten"
<Renirk> ok
<Maeglin_Lomion> What about "to speak?"
<Gorlab> except that with our spelling conventions, we turn all "K" s into "C" s..
<Roccovende> :)
<Annatar> and "he/she/it brightens" would be...
<Aredhel> what about you?
<Renirk> kalia ?
<Gorlab> "cala" would be the present tense of this...
<Aredhel> the gerund?
<Renirk> calanye for the 1st person ?
<Gorlab> I brighten...yes...
<Maeglin_Lomion> If quetanye is "I speak," would quetalye be "you speak?" That is, if I remember the noun thing correctly from last week...?
<Gorlab> So there is also Past and Future Tense as well...
<Gorlab> yes
<Gorlab> the Secondary Verbs just get the ending -ne tacked on...
<Gorlab> Tultane...
<Gorlab> summoned
<Renirk> calyanė?
<Catherine> secondary verbs?
<Gorlab> Tulta is summoning
<Gorlab> secondary Verbs end in -ta, -ya, -na, or -a
<Catherine> oh, thank you.
<Annatar> Primary and Secondary verbs are not separated so much by meaning as by an almost arbitrary grammatical difference, think of regular and irregular verbs if that helps
<Elaran> or "Strong" and "weak" for that matter =)
<Gorlab> Primary verbs get the -ne ending IF they end in -r, -m, or -n
<Annatar> ;-)
<Gorlab> but the ending -le if the verb ends in an -l
<Gorlab> and if the ending is -p, -t, or -c....
<Gorlab> we have to add a NASAL INFIXION....
<Gorlab> No, this is not something you stick in your nose...
<Annatar> let's have an example
<Annatar> which would hurt
<Gorlab> the Quenya word Top-
<Gorlab> means "to cover"
<Gorlab> But because it ends in a -p
<Gorlab> We must place an "m" before this consonant...
<Gorlab> and add the "e" to the end...
<Catherine> Isn't that past tense?
<Gorlab> making the Past tense of this word "Tompe"
<Catherine> oh, whoops.
<Gorlab> The FUTURE tense would be Topuva...
<Gorlab> except you drop the -a endings of all Secondary Verbs to form this...
<Gorlab> So Tulta would be Tultuva...will summon
<Annatar> and NOT tultAuva
<Gorlab> The last couple of things about Quenya Verbs is the aorist tense, and the agreement in number with subject...
<Maeglin_Lomion> "I will cover" would be topuvanye?
<Gorlab> an aorist is a verb tense that relates to a general timeless action....
<Gorlab> topuvanye, yes!!!
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thanks. I think I'm getting the hang of this. :)
<Gorlab> To get back to Quet-
<Gorlab> Quet- would be "speak"
<Gorlab> Quetie would be "to speak"
<Gorlab> Queta would be "is speaking"
<Gorlab> but the aorist would be Quete, with the "-e" ending meaning "speaks"
<Annatar> The Aorist would mean "always speaks" or "is always speaking"
<Drogo> hmmm
<Drogo> Bilbo! BIlbo! Bilbo Baggins
<Gorlab> The Quenya present tense always denotes the english "is, -ing" form
<Annatar> I am speaking (now)
<Annatar> vs.
<Gorlab> He speaks
<Annatar> I (always) speak
<blindeye> ash nazg
<Gorlab> The final big thing about Quenya is that all Verbs must agree with their subject in number...
<blindeye> lol
<Gorlab> So if the subject is Plural
<blindeye> all i know is the ring chant anyways
<Gorlab> The Verbs must be too...
<Gorlab> mercifully Professor Tolkien has given us one ending for plural verbs...
<Gorlab> -r
<Gorlab> So that about wraps it up for quenya verbs - how about Sindarin verbs, Annatar?
<Annatar> They got em'...
<Annatar> and next week we'l be covering the intricacies and delights of the Sindarin Verbal sysytem
<Elaran> lol
<Annatar> If you came back next week, many of the concepts that we've covered tonight will help with Sindarin verbs
<Gorlab> Thankyou one and all for showing up - one more lesson and we will begin to speak in sentences to one another...
<Maeglin_Lomion> Thank you Gorlab & Annatar.
<Annatar> in the mean time, here are a couple of URLs to check out
<Demosthenes> thanks Annatar. thanks gorlab
<Gorlab> Then we will have some lessons geared towards writing in Tengwar..
<Aeran> thanks
<Gorlab> Namarie!
<Maeglin_Lomion> Cool!
<Demosthenes> I'm hoping to have the previous lesson up soon btw
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> thanks Gorlab!!!
<blindeye> doodeedoo
<blindeye> lala
<Annatar> if you look under "verb" section of "Sindarin: the noble tongue" you will encounter an informing and formidable essay. I'll try to break it down http://ardalambion.com/
<Eowyn_Sister-Daughter> I typed the log as we went if you want it
<Annatar> also, there is a less frightening discussion of Sindarin verbs at http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie.htm
<Annatar> This will be the primary document we'll be discussing, so study up, and We'll see y'all next week.