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Elvish 101 Lesson 2 Transcript
Jincey @ 10:10 pm EST
[Annatar] hello, we're trying to connect a 2nd machine right now, this is paul, Kris will also be here, but not jeff
[Gorlab] This is Kris again, and I am now Balrog backwards...
[Gorlab] Today's lesson is full of perilous phonology, dangerous diphthongs, and phunny phrases....stay tuned...
[Gorlab] 8 O'clock....
[Gorlab] The ring of power is no trifle......or truffle...now the ring of Truffle is VERY tasty...
[jincey] mmmmm truffles
[Gorlab] Gandalf is no ordinary wizard, but part of a special group of powers.....like Silent Bob has in Mallrats....
[Annatar] elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
[[Gorlab] Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo fellow Elvish language lovers!
[Gorlab] Today's lesson oh fair people, shall cover some of the most basic principles of Elvish, which are instrumental in speaking both Quenya and Sindarin...
[Gorlab] Elvish has a common source.
[Gorlab] It is known as Primitive Elvish (or Primitive Quendian if you like)
[Annatar] fortunately, the Professor (tolkien) used essentially the same rules for "spelling" or transliterating both Sindarin and Quenya
[Gorlab] Exactly - owing to their common source...
[Gorlab] the first idea is that of the letter "c"
[Gorlab] Lots of early Elvish used the letter "K"
[Annatar] Presumably, they were both written in Tenwar in the "source documents" but in differing modes, however, when written in Roman alphabet, the same rules apply
[Gorlab] But the Professor wanted to make Quenya seem a lot more Latinized...
[Gorlab] so he adopted "c"
[Annatar] Tolkien decided that K was "uncouth"
[Gorlab] "c" is ALWAYS pronounced like "k"
[Annatar] unless combines with H
[Annatar] in which case youget the ch of German "ich"
[Gorlab] so, for instance Celeborn (husband of Galadriel) is pronouced "Keleborn", never "Seleborn"
[Gorlab] Next is "qu". "Qu" is the preffered spelling, never "q" by itself
[Demcoffee] it took me ages to catch onto the pronunciation sublties in the names
[Gorlab] Only Tolkien's earliest languages used "q" by itself.
[Gorlab] Next is "X" instead of "ks" as in "Helcaraxe"
[Annatar] However, it is not the Q of "iraq" but pronounced qu
[Gorlab] next is "N"
[Maeglin_Lomion] Pronunciation question: "Fingolfin"...is it Fing(ng as in sing) -ol-fin, or Fin-gol-fin?
[Elaran] is not gandalf from the mannish tongues?
[Gorlab] Gandalf is actually an old Norse word from the icelandic eddas...
[Elaran] indeed, just curious
[Gorlab] I believe he was a dwarf in that story...
[Annatar] I believe that it's fin-GOL-fin
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thank you
[Ks] question ?
[Ks] i live in israel.. does the elvish dudes got the het letter?
[Ks] i mean
[Ks] can they say
[Ks] cant say it
[Ks] in english
[Ks] u dont use that sound
[Ks] AT ALL
[Ks] so its hard to pronounce
[Gorlab] you are reffering to the semitic/arabic idea of the sound in the back of the throat?
[Annatar] no, do they use it in arabic?
[Ks] yes they use it in arabic 2
[Gorlab] as in chutzpah?
[Gorlab] Not exactly...
[Ks] the first letter
[Annatar] what context?
[Ks] the first sound
[Ks] of chutzpah
[Annatar] that is the ch of evlish approximately
[Gorlab] Elves DO pronounce "hy" as an "ich-laut" and "ht" as an "ach-laut"
[Mo] is it kind of like a spitting sound in the back of your throat Ks?
[Gorlab] It's more of a germanic idea than the hebrew sound...
[Annatar] ich is unvoiced, ach is voiced
[Gorlab] The Elvish is a similar sound, but more in the front of the mouth...
[Annatar] let's talk about my fave -- "dh"
[Annatar] TH in English is pronouced 2 ways
[Gorlab] Ah! DH...found all over Sindarin...
[Annatar] in Elvish TH is voiceless ""thing"
[Annatar] DH is voiced "them"
[Gorlab] not as in "thought"
[Maeglin_Lomion] Aredhel - "soft" TH?
[Figgy] as in...?
[Annatar] D was Sometimes used for DH in Tolkiens early writings
[Gorlab] a good word seen in the LOTR movie I believe is Galadhrim...
[Annatar] but he later smitched to DH for clarity in LOTR
[Annatar] in the 1st Editon of LOTR it's "Galadrim"
[Annatar] but he later changed it to "GalaDHrim"
[Gorlab] Try the soft "th" sound followed by the trilled "r"
[Dsthenes] ah, interesting
[Gorlab] it's a beautiful sound...
[Figgy] it sounds very nice :)
[GuestLastar] makes it easier to pronounce
[Annatar] "galad" is "light" "galadh" is tree
[Annatar] Galadriel has the "light" element like Gil Galad
[Elaran] Haldir is about the only person to pronounce Galadhrim correctly (in the extended version)
[Annatar] he's a good elf
[Gorlab] Yes, Elaran!
[Elaran] Gimli mutilates it ;-)
[Gorlab] Gimli WOULD though...
[Elaran] sorry to interupt!
[GuestLastar] ah. evil dwarves
[Annatar] GalaDHrim has the "tree" element
[Annatar] tree people
[Elaran] galadh= tree galad = light
[Gorlab] The Galadhrim are the peoples of Lothlorien...
[Gorlab] Of the trees...
[Annatar] A great name with DH is Maedhros form the Silmarillion
[Maeglin_Lomion] That is a beautiful-sounding name.
[Annatar] 'cause, he also has the AE sound
[Gorlab] which brings us to long and short vowels...
[Dsthenes] Now I'm going to have to reform a heap of name pronunciations again. :)
[Gorlab] whenever you see a vowel by itself...
[Annatar] it's difficult to pronounce but it's like "I" in English
[Gorlab] it is pronounced "short"
[Lefolas] how many times have you guys done all of this? teaching people elvish
[Gorlab] but when you see a vowel with an accent mrk above it...
[2[Gorlab] that vowel becomes long...
[Gorlab] short "A" is pronounced like "Han Solo". when we first meet him in Star Wars...
[Gorlab] long "A" os pronounced as in "father"
[Figgy] I see
[Indil] so, the circumflex accent always indicates a long vowel?
[Annatar] yes, but it's also used for visual effect in non-Elven tongues
[Lady_Samwise] hte a in father and in han sound the same though
[Legolas17] ok my question is ok now.... i guess
[Legolas17] the double l, like in 'mellon' -friend
[Maeglin_Lomion] So ‚ would be pronounced like the a in "day?"
[Annatar] such as Adunaic and Khuxdul -- Dwarvish
[samgamgee7] yea, i got lost on that one too, Lady_Samwise...
[Elaran] they should sound the same, the only difference is the length
[samgamgee7] a lil further clarification on that one?
[Legolas17] is it not pronounced like in the back of the throat h
[Figgy] their length is different
[Lady_Samwise] oh IC...
[Figgy] maybe "cat" and "father"
[samgamgee7] ahhh, ok : )
[Gorlab] "Han" is more like "hand" than the "a" in "father"
[Annatar] for the AY in day you need EI
[Indil] I think like the a in man rather than han
[Lia_the_vampire] im a little confused
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thank you.
[Annatar] Okay from the top
[Gorlab] "man" will do fine...
[Annatar] A is the European "a"
[[Gorlab] short "a" is like "man"
[Gorlab] long "a" is like "Father"
[Elaran] as in british english? or are we refering to other celtic or Norse languages?
[Annatar] "E" is the Euro "E" not the American one
[Annatar] Italian is a good guide to Elvish vowels
[Maeglin_Lomion] Example? I'm American
[CloakedGuest thinks to pronounce the majority of vowels as they would be in Spanish
[Lia_the_vampire] im a vampire
[Gorlab] short "i" is like "pit"
[Annatar] and long is like Pete
[Gorlab] long "i" is like the one in "machine"
[Annatar] O is like "Lore"
[[Gorlab] short "o" is like "box"
[Gorlab] long "o" is like "sore"
[liam] We're talking Sindarin, right?
[Annatar] but not "Open"
[Annatar] same for Q and S
[Gorlab] these pronunciations are nearly universal for elvish...
[Annatar] Different in Tengwar, Same in the Roman Characters
[liam] Q doesn't make as much difference between long and short vowels, I understand.
[Annatar] not really, but the spelling in English takes care of that
[hobbit] wut does Falchrist mean?
[hobbit] short i, not long
[Gorlab] Sounds Old english...Annatar?
[Annatar] Coast Cleaver?
[Elaran] it means something on the order of "deep cutting ravine" or possibly "deep cutting cleaver"
[Annatar] Falas -- coast, Orcrist Orc -cleaver
[Eressea] Most of the r's seem to be trilled.
[liam] and hold the second o a little longer.
[Gorlab] actually, the "r' must be trilled in all positions...
[CloakedGuest] Also, from Old English I believe, the "Gan" part means "to wander" ... for I am descended from someone called Ganger.
[Mo] what is a trilled r?
[Eressea] Standard Elvish pronunciation to trill r's?
[Elaran] tis what gives the language part of its flavor =) Tolkien seemed to dislike the uvelar r that the french use
[Salquendor] from what i understand quenya vowels are like romance language vowels, from the site it seems to be all of my spanish vowels and the quenya vowels match (short form)
[liam] trilled r's are a bit like Spanish rr
[Annatar] it can be tappped, bur it is never the retoflex R of American English
[Guest1] whats hello in elvish?
[Indil] so the trilled r Ian McKellen uses to say "mordor" in the films is correct?
[[Gorlab] Yes, it is standard, although you don't have to get excited like Charro on the Love Boat...
[Brandalf85] Hello in elvish is "vendui"
[Brandalf85] well that is "Greetings"
[Guest1] oh thanks
[Gorlab] ABSOLUTELY!!! One of Ian McKellan's great pronunciations...
[liam] Yes, McKellen gets that dead to rights.
[Annatar] Tolkien said that he believed that Italian Vowels were the closest to Quenya
[Eressea] Who's excited?
[2[Guest1] how do you prononce it?
[Brandalf85] Ven Doo
[Gorlab] Or, "Aiya!" which means "hail!" or "Greetings!"
[Annatar] The Sindarin Y however seems to be Welsh
[Brandalf85] yes Gor
[Salquendor] annatar, i dont know much italian, but they are close to spanish short vowels correct?
[[Brandalf85] Mckellen got Gandalfs voice from Tolkiens
[Indil] It cstainly sounds more impressive that way :)
[liam] the Sindarin Y is like German u-umlat.
[Brandalf85] i have some of tolkien reading on tape
[[Gorlab] Also, the fomal greeting is "Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo"
[Elaran] vendu? would we not see something from the roots _suilanna_ or _suila_?
[Guest1] is namarie goodbye?
[Brandalf85] yes guest
[liam] Say "ee" and then round your lips like you would for saying "o".
[Brandalf85] actually its "Farewell"
[Annatar] Since Sindarin was modelled on Welsh to a certain degree, this makes sense
[Gorlab] Namarie is indeed "Good-bye"
[Gorlab] from Na, meaning "is"
[Brandalf85] i have a website that gives like a whole list of elvish phrases
[Guest1] whats how are you?
[Gorlab] and "marie" meaning "it is good"
[Elaran] and Navaer is the deduced sindarin counterpart
[hobbit] namarie means be in good health, if i am correct
[Elaran] gah no!
[Brandalf85] for elvish phrases
[Gorlab] "be good" would be a possible literal translation for "Namarie"
[Eressea] I was under the impression that Grey Company Elvish was fan-devised.
[Annatar] okay, back to vowels
[Gorlab] I'm sure there are others...
[Annatar] AE and AI are very close
[Elaran] it is Eressea, its devised out of both Sindarin and Quenya for roleplaying purposes
[Elaran] hence my personal distaste for it
[Figgy] how is Eressea pronounced?
[Brandalf85] Eres Say
[Brandalf85] i believe
[[Eressea] Er - ess - ay - ah
[Brandalf85] or not
[Eressea] It's spelled EressŽa with the funny accent on the third 'e'.
[Elaran] diaresis ;-)
[[Annatar] A is the "father" A, I is the sound in "meet" together you get "I" the english pronoun
[Gorlab] With the accent on the "ay" sound...
[Figgy] I've been saying it right then
[Eressea] Or as Eresseš if you're not talking about the island, but the word.
[Gorlab] a diaresis is used to 1:
[Gorlab] Clarify seperate pronunciation of vowels
[Gorlab] 2. for a final "e"
[Annatar] E is the A of "lady"
[Figgy] I see
[Gorlab] or 3 for vowel combinations.
[Eressea] Diaresis is the two-dots thing?
[Annatar] like Spanish Italian etc.
[Gorlab] two dots thingy, yup!
[Annatar] two dots, two sounds
[GuestLastar] oh. what is the pronounciation difference between Ž and e
[Gorlab] "au" os pronounced as in "cow"
[Gorlab] Try pronouncing the God "Aule"
[Eressea] GuestLastar, iirc "Ž" tends to take on the "ay" sound.
[Indil] Like "owly?
[Annatar] We used to call the "dotted" E "Feanorian" it jest means to separate thevowles
[Brandalf85] i always pronounced Aule like "oo lee"
[Brandalf85] for some reason
[Gorlab] "eu" is pronounced like the name of the Peter Gabriel album "so"
[CloakedGuest thinks of the word lenguŽta in Spanish as an example of how diaresis changes sound similar to what Eressea says
[Eressea] I was doing "Oh - lay" but I suppose, given "S ow - ron", it should be ow-leh...
[Annatar] diaresis is used the same way that is is in
[[Mo] would eu be like the french word for water then?
[Annatar] French E.G. "noel"
[Gorlab] Sow-rahn, as in "cow-rahn", Dark Lord of Cattle...
[Maeglin_Lomion] :) Gorlab
[Gorlab] "iu" is pronounced like "yoo"
[Annatar] in lieu of
[Annatar] for example
[Gorlab] and, the skate-punk's fave: "oi" is pronounced as in "toy"
[GuestLastar] umm... is there a between in meaning betwen, for example, faire and fairŽ becuz of the Ž?
[Annatar] not to my knowlege
[Gorlab] final "e" always recieves the diaresis...
[Gorlab] it really just means that it is always pronounced seperately
[Gorlab] in fact, you almost don't need it...
[Annatar] speaking of stress . . .
[Annatar] Who here knows how it works?
[Gorlab] Which sylablle gets the "oomph"?
[Mo] is it the middle syllable?
[Elaran] I do
[Elaran] though it is somewhat complex
[Maeglin_Lomion] 2nd out of 4th, if 4 syllables?
[Indil] In Welsh it would be the middle...
[Gorlab] Well, what if you only have on sylablle?
[Eressea] Elvish is inflexive, is it not?
[Elaran] then it falls on the one ;)
[Annatar] basically, if there are more than one syllable, the 2nd or 3rd to last gets it
[Gorlab] Two syllables will ALWAYS be on the first syllable as well...
[Figgy] we got lots of training on stressed syllables in school
[Gorlab] EXCEPT for...
[Gorlab] one word: "Ava"
[Gorlab] it means "Don't!"
[Eressea] Ava, as in Avatar?
[Indil] or Avari, the refusers?
[Annatar] different language
[Gorlab] In Elvish, Avatar would be "Don't King"
[Gorlab] Avari! Yes!
[Eressea] Perhapts it's Av-atar, rather than ava-tar, then..
[Maeglin_Lomion] Haldir always seems to be pronounced Hal-DEER. Would that be an exception, or is everyone pronouncing it wrong?
[Elaran] it should be on the first
[Annatar] I think it's a mistake, and it's also why he seems a little annoyed
[Elaran] the only time I can think of where one _might_ place it finally would be if the word incorporated a circumflex (possibly to mark it as irregular stress)
[Eressea] So how does one pronounce "Ancalagoth" in terms of stress?
[Annatar] not AncalAgoth
[Gorlab] Well, here's where our idea of long and short vowels comes in handy...
[Annatar] and single and double consonants
[[Eressea] So like Caribbean, then. :)
[Gorlab] If a word has 3 or more sylablles...
[Gorlab] many are stressed on the second-to-last sylablle...
[Indil] so, MinDOLluin? Instead of MINdolluin?
[Gorlab] if this syllable is SHORT
[Annatar] if the 2nd to last Syllable has a "short" vowel or is separated from the last one by a single consonant, then it's too "weak to get the stress
[Gorlab] (Sure Oh cloaked one)
[Gorlab] A short syllable is one that
[Annatar] in which case stress moves to the 3rd to last syllable
[CloakedGuest] (thank you Gorlab)
[Gorlab] 1. Contains no long vowel and
[Gorlab] 2 is followed by only one consonant or no consonant at all
[Annatar] in technical terms the 3rd to last syllable is the "antepenultimate"
[Gorlab] If this sylablle is SHORT
[Gorlab] then the 3rd-to-last sylablle gets the stress...
[Eressea] What a word, "antepenultimate"...
[Elaran] lol tis better than antidisestablishmentarianism ;-)
[Eressea] Ante-pen-ultimate... that would be before-almost-last, yes?
[Eressea] Hence, third-last.
[Maeglin_Lomion] An example of this? I'm confuzzled......
[Gorlab] Annatar - an example?
[Gorlab] As opposed to..
[Annatar] DR is bigger separation than G
[Eressea] Then GonDOlin over GONdolin?
[ohtar_i_anar] is there any stress?
[CloakedGuest] In fact, I've been saying GondoLIN.
[ohtar_i_anar] there is no mark
[Annatar] no, ND vs. L
[Maeglin_Lomion] So have I. :)
[Indil] So Mindolluin, above, should really be MidolLUIN?
[Indil] oh dear. This is very confusing :-0
[ohtar_i_anar] actually, when I say it, I find myself saying gonDOlin
[Annatar] not the boat
[ohtar_i_anar] I know
[Gorlab] This completes my time here in the Hall, thanks for listening...be here next week for more - Annatar might stay a bit...
[Annatar] or, rather like GONDola instead of gondOla
[Eressea] Thanks, Gorlab. :)
[Indil] Thank you gorlab. This has been very helpful!
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thanks, Gorlab.
[Annatar] follow the consonants, and when they don's help. look for accents
[Mo] Thank you Gorlab - cant' be here usually bacause of work, but i appreciate it
[Pippin] ok, so what form of Elvish are we learning exactly?
[furryfootses] where can i get all the info that i missed since these lessons started
[Eressea] On the site, furryfootses, I believe there are logs...
[Annatar] The chat as a whole will try to cover Quenya and Sindarin
[Pippin] ok, cool :)
[Annatar] However, they overlap considerably
[Pippin is learning Quenya, but it kinda confuses her as the lesson planner uses big words
[furryfootses] thanks, eressea and annatar
[Annatar] if anyone has any germaine questions please ask, otherwise, my fingers hurt
[Legolas17] how is ll pronounced, as in 'mellon'?
[Pippin] like a normal l
[Pippin] not like spanish
[Mo] Do you know any examples for long and short E? i'm not familiar with more european styles
Gorlab has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[Legolas17] i read somewhere that it was pronounced like a harsh h in the back of the throat
[Annatar] thank you every one I'll see y'all later
[Pippin] somewhere must have been referring to Gandalf's pronunciation of the word in the Bakshi edition of LOTR
[Indil] Thank you so much Annatar!
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thank you, Annatar.
[Eressea] Thank you, Annatar. :)
[Legolas17] thanks Annatar
[Dsthenes] thanks, Annatar. :)
[Mo] Thank you Annatar
[GuestLastar] thnx annatar
[Pippin] thank you Annatar