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Elvish Lesson Transcript 06-18-03
Jincey @ 9:23 pm EST
[Annatar] Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo/ /Paul, Kris, and Jeff here, we'll be ready to start @ 8
[jincey] hiya annatar : ))
[Annatar] Hello eveyone. we are Paul Dunne, Kris Nelson, and Jeff Sherrill, and we do a Panel on Elvish
[Annatar] Welcome, and please bear with us as we try to get our footing
[jincey] everyone, i'd like to introduce you to three really cool guys i met in atlanta a few years ago
[jincey] jeff sherrill, paul dunne, and kris nelson have been teaching elvish for several years at atlanta's dragon*con
[Annatar] We are not the big experts on Elvish, or anything, but we have been studying it using the resources available in print and on the web
[jincey] tonight they are here on one computer, known collectively as annatar
[Annatar] What we thought we'd do is see where people's interest is, and show some of the places we use for information
[Annatar] First of all how many people here are acutally interested in learning the Elish language?
[Maeglin_Lomion] Right now, I'm gathering a list of Elvish words, then would like to learn sentence structure.
[Estel_MM] i am
[Zerolene] i'm with ML
[Morodiel] Me too
[Zerolene] in fact, i was just about to say about the same thing
[Jackie] same here
[HannaBoffin] I would like to also learn some vocabulary
[Raziel] Me too i'm learning quenya from Helge Favskanger's docs
[Annatar] Maeglin, excellent. There is a wonderful way to learn the sentence structure on Helge's site, ArdaLambion
[Toe] sentence structure would be good
[Kriinge] Oh uhm i want to learn what they want to learn
[Annatar] HannaBoffin, Helge's ArdaLambion does have a Quenya Corpus word list
[Raziel] and so much more\
[HannaBoffin] yes, but is that the best way to start? vocab first, and then structure
[HannaBoffin] I have checked out ardalambion...it is HUGE!
[Kriinge] I just really want to learn because I'm curious. and interested.
[Zerolene] what's the difference between the 3 types of elvish?
[Annatar] that is the ardalambion site run by Helg Fauskanger
[Maeglin_Lomion] I have the Sindarin dictionary, but I think the original website I downloaded it from is down.
[Raziel] no, he has a tutorial, a quenya course, by no means just vocab
[Alorin] I'd like to see what you have to say about the Sindarin sentence structure.. Not much info to get about that anywhere
[Annatar] Zerolene, first there is Quenya which is the primary almost root language
[Annatar] second there is Sindarin which ultimately dirives from the more basic Quenya
[Annatar] not certain what you believe to be the third language....Quenya and Sindarin are the basic two
[Zerolene] what's tengwar.. or something... i dunno, i heard people talking about it
[Estel_MM] elvish writing Zerolene
[Zerolene] oh, k
[Kriinge] ooooh I see.
[Toe] Is there anywhere that teaches the black tongue of mordor?
[Annatar] Tengwar is actually not a language per sae....it is the rune forms that the Elvish (and any particular) language can be writen in
[Raziel] i have tengwar font on my comp
[Annatar] Toe, there is not nearly enough information about the black speach to learn it
[Toe] Any where with even a few words or phrases?
[Annatar] as far We know there are only a few words and no whole sentances (except for the ring inscription)
[Raziel] yeah, just or 3 sentences, the message on the ring and Orc's curse
[Raziel] if you can call the curse a sentence
[Morodiel] I believe the Grey Havens has a small piece on it
[Toe] any dwarvish?
[Raziel] Ugluk to to the cesspool dung-filth sha saruman-fool skai
[Annatar] Alorin, as for Sindarin sentance structure there is not much to be found.
[Alorin] Is there anything?
[HannaBoffin] Is there any written material/books that one could purchase to learn quenya?
[Annatar] you can find what there is find about Sindarin here
[Morodiel] They have an article on Khuzdul, which I believe is dwarvish...
[jincey] what is your opinion of ruth noells book? ; )
[Raziel] Is that Tolkien?
[Raziel] he looks... nice
[Annatar] HannaBoffin, there is first of all a Quenya tutorial at www.ardalambion.com
[Annatar] Ruth Noell's book is not a very good source
[jincey] can you please explain why?
[Annatar] It is a good start point
[Raziel] never read it
[Annatar] Ruth Noell's book has been superceeded
[Annatar] The History of Middle Earth has many things about the languages that discredit Ruth Noell
[jincey] she wrote her book long before HoMe came out i think
[Annatar] As and example, The Lost Road has a part called the Etymologies which superceed Ruth Noell's interpretations
[Guest802556911] I'm interested learning how to piece together small sindarin sentences for fan fiction? What's the best way to start?
[Annatar] You can find "Movie Sindarin" at www.elvish.org
[Jackie] yes, I'd also like to learn sentence structure for Sindarin
[Annatar] O.k. there is not much availible about Sindarin sentance structure. Other that the link I just mentioned
[Annatar] though We'll see what We can come up with for you next week
[HannaBoffin] Pronunciation is another matter altogether, but also interesting to me :)
[Annatar] Unfortunately the most fully worked out grammar
[Annatar] is Quenya
[Guest802556911] I found a site that translated and parsed out the Sindarin used in the films and it was useful. It may have been the site you quoted
[Annatar] for that the best resourse is www.ardalambion.com
[Raziel] Why do you say unfortunately?
[Raziel] Quenya is a beautiful and well-structured language
[Annatar] I say unfortuately because most of the elvish words and pharases that you encounter in the books and movies is actually Sindarin
[Alorin] We all have our own favourite
[Annatar] Most of the Quenya is in the Silmarillion
[HannaBoffin] There was a lot said about the coaching the actors in LotR received in speaking elvish, was that Sindarin???
[Raziel] Quenta Silmarillon is mostly base don Quenya
[Annatar] by the time of LOTR most people speak Sindarin not Quenya
[Annatar] acutally there is an even more basic Qenya which can only be found in HOME
[Guest802556911] Quenya is indeed well structured but when writing fan fiction not too useful as nobody in the third age speaks it as normal conversation. It's more ceremonial.
[Annatar] This is true Quest, though you'll find more scholoarly studies in Quenya
[Raziel] Not useful if writing about the third age, yet you can write about a lot more then the War of the RING
[Annatar] Also should you wish to write say poetry....Quenya is well suited
[Raziel] Good Point!
[Raziel] It's very Musical
[Estel_MM] i agree
[jincey] is namarie quenya or sindarin?
[Annatar] yes the Namarie sung/spoken by Galadriel is a good example of most Quenya grammar
[jincey] i have a clip of tolkien reading that
[Guest802556911] All very true, and I may just write some Sim based fan fic at some point.
[Estel_MM] me too
[Maeglin_Lomion] Is "navaer" its Sindarin equivalent?
[Raziel] never heard it?
[Annatar] The "Kings Letter" in Sauron Defeated (HOME V. IX) has a large chunk of Sindarin
[Alorin] Are the Sindarin pronouns immune to mutations? For example, Salos sentence "Lasto beth n'n", with peth-]beth... Would "Bring him" translate into "Togo chon" or "Togo hon" from Togo + Hon?
[Annatar] Maeglin it could be....
[SkyKing] what is a good recource for script/caligraphy, i will be etching several swords over the next few months
[Annatar] Unfortunatly we do not understand Sindarin lenition very well right now
[Maeglin_Lomion] I had seen it posted on a website and someone in Barli's used it as a farewell, but it may be just that person's interpretation...?
[Annatar] SkyKing, try this site hem.passagen.se
[Raziel] I beg your pardon but does anyone know where to find HomE as ebooks, because you couldn't find them in my country and importing them would cost me a fortune?
[Annatar] Raziel, we wish.....
[jincey] Raziel please stick to the topic
[maegwen] slightly off topic though
[Annatar] actually Jincey that is a good thought, because HOME has a lot of resources for the linguistic side
[jincey] an ebook would be gargantuan
[Raziel] 12 ebooks
[Annatar] The the most important of the 12 books is "The Lost Road" V.V, "Sauron Defeated" V. IX, and War of the Jewels V. X
[Annatar] opps War of the Jewels is Vol. XI
[Raziel] i already have LOTR, Silm, UT, and letters, but not HoME
[Raziel] thanks jincey
[Alorin] Could you explain to me why Salo uses the infinitive of the verb Na- in the sentence "Nad no ennas." instead of the present form Nâ?
[Alorin] This question has been bothering me for months =/
[Annatar] Right off the tip of the toungue not certain, though We can look into it and give you an answer next week
[Annatar] You can also find Our e-mail adresses at www.frodocoita.com
[Alorin] That'd be nice
[Annatar] who asked about pronunciation?
[Estel_MM] sry, but what/who is Salo?
[Alorin] David Salo, the linguist who constructed all sentences in the LotR movies
[Annatar] David Salo is partially responsible for the movie Sindarin
[Alorin] *all elvish sentences
[Estel_MM] ahh, ok thank you
[Annatar] hold brb as inJvstice
[Raziel] Why did Cate Blanchette cut the a in eArendil in the movie?
[Raziel] i kinda noticed that and it bothered me
[inJvstice] o.k. I'm back was Annatar a moment ago
[Raziel] she pronounce erendil
[jincey] wb jeff and kris and paul : )
[inJvstice] Jeff typing now
[Raziel] Why did Cate Blanchette cut the a in eArendil in the movie?
[Raziel] she pronounced erendil
[inJvstice] perhaps you could call that dialect
[inJvstice] although this brings up a good point
[inJvstice] the diaresis above the 'e' in Tolkien's words indicates that that 'e' is pronounced
[Raziel] Galadriel was around since the time of Feanor, she was in Valinor, i think she should have spoken the high language in its true form
[inJvstice] so in the name Earendil, you are correct. The two vowels should be seperately pronounced
[Guest802556911] when constructing a phrase like "my little star" I have come up with "Gileg nin" because I read in one of the online grammar that "my" comes after the word it is modifying? Is this right?
[inJvstice] ahhh Galadriel is not Cate Blanchett
[inJvstice] however, just for internal argument sake Galadriel had been in Middle for a very very very long time
[Raziel] i just said that
[inJvstice] Guest that would at least follow the Movie form of Sindarin
[Alorin] Well, I'd say that adjective following the noun is pretty well established?
[Guest802556911] The movie form by Salo? How else would it be done?
[inJvstice] Guest, we'll be getting into Sindarin grammar in a later session
[inJvstice] Salo made some interpretations to Sindarin in order to make it consistant and useable
[Guest802556911] InJvstice, thanks, I'll ask then.
[inJvstice] Sindarin grammar is not nearly a worked out as Quenya,thus some interpretation was necessary
[Raziel] He shouldn't have done that really, but bothering about those details is going too far, like asking why legolas was blonde in the movie :)
[inJvstice] right now we are pretty much looking to dissimlate the various sources one might use to learn the languages and Tengwar
[inJvstice] who is intersted in learning Tengwar?
[Estel_MM] i am
[SkyKing] i am
[Maeglin_Lomion] Me too
[molrak] i am
[inJvstice] in the next week or two we hope to be able to run a lesson on how to write your name
[Guest802556911] I would!
[SkyKing] i need it for etching script onto the swords i will be making in hte next month or two
[Raziel] i have the tengwar font at home, but don't know how it's structured
[inJvstice] for right now, however; there is a site at hem.passagen.se
[inJvstice] this is a link to the charts laid out there
[inJvstice] for those who are interested in doing their own leg work We recommend the Appendix E, in Return of the King
[inJvstice] there the Professer lays out the Tengwar values for Quenya and English
[Raziel] could you possibly also speak a little about the other type of writing invented by Feanor, the runes (like the ones on balin's grave and the sidebar of tornIRC)
[inJvstice] though I'll admit the previous link has it laid out already
[inJvstice] the Tengwar are the ones invented by Feanor
[[inJvstice] The Cirth (the more nordic runes) in App. E of RotK was invented by Daeron (in Beleriand)
[Raziel] didn't he invent two types of writing, tengwar for writing and the runes for carving?
[Raziel] oh, ok
[Raziel] thnx for the update
[inJvstice] the Sarati which can be found in HOME and at hem.passagen.se
[inJvstice] were invented by Rumil of Tirion (these are the ones that predate the Tengwar)
[inJvstice] the Tengwar are basically a phonetic alphabet
[inJvstice] meaning they can be used to represent sounds in any language
[inJvstice] so you can have Tengwar values for Quenya, Sindarin, English, and even Russian if you want
[inJvstice] there are some rules to adjusting the values, We'll get into that when we acutally run a bit on Tengwar in the couple of weeks
[Estel_MM] inJvstice, what can we do to become somewhat fluent in reading and writing in elvish (particularly Quenya)? Can the Quenya tutorial be enough?
[inJvstice] though these rules are laid out in RotK
[Alorin] Excuse me for coming back to David Salos sentences again, but could you answer me why he uses the present form "pedich" in www.elvish.org (first line) instead of the past tense, "pennech"?
[inJvstice] not at this point
[inJvstice] Estel the tutorial is the best source for that
[[inJvstice] unfortunalty there are not enough attested words to be completely fluent
[inJvstice] In fact Estel, We have been useing Helge's tutorial quite extensively
[[Estel_MM] i c
[Raziel] i have noticed Sauron's black speech has some phonetical elements from sindarin, why is that?
[[inJvstice] o.k. quick poll, what would you people like to see in the upcoming weeks
[inJvstice] because none speaking Black Speech would use Quenya
[Raziel] about the poll... go ask
[Haradrim] I would like to see easy, quick reference charts for the differnent Language elements
[Estel_MM] learn sentences, common sentences
[Estel_MM] sentences that we would use in english everyday
[inJvstice] o.k. we've got some quick reference charts for Quenya, though they are not currently posted
[Guest802556911] Whatever can be found on sentence and Phrase structure in Sindarin!
[Alorin] Guest802556911 we talked about that before, there is none
[inJvstice] Estel, the likely problem with 'everyday' sentances there aren't that many 'everyday' words that Tolkien gives
[inJvstice] thank you Alorin
[inJvstice] though we'll see what we can come up with for some 'everyday
[Raziel] that's what i was going to say
[inJvstice] sentance ideas for next weekl
[Guest802556911] Sorry! must not have seen that posting! :-(
[Haradrim] It's possible to extrapolate words, and they are correct in themselves, but we have no idea whether Tolkien intended for there to be another word for that or not...we just can't know.
[inJvstice] that is true Haradrim
[Raziel] I only wish The Master was still alive
[Estel_MM] yes Raziel
[inJvstice] next week We can also try to translate your names into Elvlish
[jincey] he'd be pretty old and crotchety by now...
[Haradrim] How would you go about that?
[Alorin] I'd give 10 years of my life to him, so he could finish off Sindarin wordlists and grammars ;)
[Guest802556911] I like that idea.
[Estel_MM] that would be nice
[inJvstice] or out of Elvish if you prefer
[Raziel] if there was one man that deserved to be an elf...
[Haradrim] How would you go about translating names? Do you find the root-meanings of the names and translate those, then add the correct name...isms? How does that work/
[inJvstice] On closing I'd like to say that The Good Professor once said that He created the languages first and Middle Earth later as a place for the languages to exist in
[Raziel] i know
[inJvstice] Haradrim, yes that is basically how it works
[Haradrim] Thank you
[inJvstice] We've a compiled list of such roots relating to naming in English
[inJvstice] So for next week, we'll have an Elvish naming, some 'everyday' words and phrases
[Alorin] Could you translate Gandalfs Sindarin name; Olorin, for me?
[Raziel] he created Arda at first as a Historical/geographical/social etc. frame for his languages but in the end wound up creating one of the most beautiful stories, no WORLDS ever told.
[Haradrim] The question is, does he have to look it up?
[inJvstice] we think Olorin is Quenya (Mithrandir is Sindarin)
[Estel_MM] lol Haradrim
[Raziel] what is Lathspell in?
[inJvstice] Olorin is connected to "olos" which means dream or vision
[[inJvstice] he spent much time in Lorien (Valinor) with Irmo
[Raziel] and that -in sufix is quenya
[inJvstice] LathSpell is old english
[Alorin] oh, ok, I was wondering where that -in came from
[Raziel] Old english, really
[Haradrim] Loads of Rohirric are taken directly from Anglo-Saxon
[Raziel] does that really mean Ill-News in old english?
[inJvstice] -in came for the came in through the 'out door' *-)
[inJvstice] yes it does Raziel Gos-spell means good news
[Raziel] it means -ish, right?
[inJvstice] as in gospel
[Raziel] i got it
[inJvstice] o.k. peeps, this about does it for us tonight
[Raziel] htat's why i said kool
[Raziel] c'mon, stay some more!
[Guest802556911] cheers! Thanks a lot!
[Alorin] Well, thanks for your time ;-)
[Maeglin_Lomion] Thanks guys, will be looking forward to next week!
[inJvstice] we must consult the palantir and see of Stargate SG-1 is on
[jincey] thanks paul and kris and jeff : )
[Maeglin_Lomion] :) inJvstice
[Estel_MM] well i have to go, need to finish studying for my calculus exam tomorrow, thank you inJvstice. May the stars shine upon your faces, Namarie!
[inJvstice] next week, same Barliman's place, same Barliman's time
[jincey] : ))
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