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Elvish Lesson #5 Transcript Posted
Jincey @ 11:58 pm EST
Here's the latest in our continuing series "How to Write a Sindarin Sentence" lessons. This week's subject was soft mutation and lenition. *** Log file opened: 3/12/2003 6:54:18 PM [Elostrion] Let's begin.
[jincey] please remember HOF rules
[jincey] try to limit your nick changes and joins/parts
[Elostrion] We're not going to moderate tonight, so please remain quiet until the end.
[jincey] no bugging barli
[jincey] he has to pay attn to log
[jincey] poor guy
[Elostrion] I will take questions following the lesson.
[jincey] lets start : )
[Elostrion] Tonight we will be covering Soft Mutation!
[Elostrion] Let me first clarify what this means.
[Elostrion] The Consonant Mutation are an occurance Tolkien added in an attempt to maintain the fluidity of the language.
[Elostrion] These are designed to take away all the harsh sounds.
[Elostrion] You will begin to recognize patterns.
[Elostrion] Tonight you will need two materials.
[Elostrion] You will find both of these here:
[Elostrion] Sindarin Consonant Mutation
[Elostrion] Consonant Mutation Chart
[Elostrion] These are both available for download as well.
[Elostrion] The nature of Soft Mutation (Lenition):
[Elostrion] Lenition is carried out on the first consonant in the word following certain prepositions, etc.
[Elostrion] Sindarin Consonant Mutations lists the words/particles that Lenition follows.
[Elostrion] Consonant Mutation Chart explains what happens to the beginning consonant.
[Elostrion] Let's do an example.
[Elostrion] "Dark wood"
[Elostrion] If you will remember from Lesson 1, adjectives follow their nouns.
[Elostrion] "Wood dark"
[Elostrion] Sindarin Consonant Mutation says that adjectives immediately following their nouns are lenited.
[Elostrion] "Wood" = "Eryn"
[Elostrion] "dark" = "doll"
[Elostrion] We must lenit "dark".
[Elostrion] So we have:
[Elostrion] "Eryn dholl"
[Elostrion] Let's do another.
[Elostrion] "The elf"
[Elostrion] If you will remember from Lesson 2, a singular "the" is "i".
[Elostrion] "I edhel"
[Elostrion] Because there is no consonant following the "i", we do not need to lenit anything.
[Elostrion] Summing up...
[Elostrion] Lenition is caused by certain words.
[Elostrion] These words cause lenition on the first consonant of the following word.
[Elostrion] Adjectives are lenited.
[Elostrion] (Immediately following their nouns)
[Elostrion] Nouns that are objects of verbs are lenited.
[Elostrion] Before I take questions there is one more thing we must cover.
[Elostrion] The second elements of compouns is lenited as well.
[Elostrion] Here is an example:
[Elostrion] "Star" = "el"
[Elostrion] "light" = "calad"
[Elostrion] "Starlight" = "Elgalad"
[Elostrion] There you have it.
[Elostrion] I am ready to take questions. Please, take turns.
[Elostrion] Are there any?
coca_coola] how do you know which consonant to leniate with
[Elostrion] Consonant Mutation chart tells you how you carry out lenition.
[Elostrion] You can find it here:
[coca_coola] like in starlight you used g but withdark wood you did h
[coca_coola] I have the chart but it is complicated ;-s
[Not_Maedhros] Elostrion, what is the difference between "el" and "gil"?
[Elostrion] You simply find the consonant that needs to be lenited, and carry out the action the chart says.
[Elostrion] They are derived from different Old Sindarin roots.
[Eowyn] why is there an 'i' in front of the letters on the charts?
[Elostrion] That "i" is an example of the most common occurance of lenition, following the Sindarin article "i".
[Eowyn] oh ok
[Elostrion] "elen" Not_Maedhros
[coca_coola] so lenition is a way to make the words flow more smoothly right?
[Elostrion] Exactly coca_coola
[coca_coola] so will someone understand you if you don't use lenition or is it necessary
[Eowyn] could you give an example of mutation with an object of a verb?
[Not_Maedhros] Elostrion, what exactly is the difference between the two? As far as I can tell, both of them are "star".
[ILookLikeLuthien] oh my goodness, I missed the whole thing.
[Elostrion] It is absolutely necessary!
[Elostrion] Please e-mail me Eowyn
[ILookLikeLuthien] my friend sent something that messed with my computer...I am so angry that I can't even express it enough.
[Elostrion] "el" is considered archaic
[Elostrion] "gil" can mean a bright spark/light as well as a star
[coca_coola] perfect sense
[coca_coola] elostrion are you fluent in sindarin?
[ILookLikeLuthien] well, I can't ask any questions, as I wasn't present for most of this...
[Elostrion] No coca_coola
[Elostrion] I am getting there, though.
[Elostrion] You will be able to read the transcript shortly ILookLikeLuthien
[coca_coola] do you understand it though? Like if i talked to you
[Elostrion] You may e-mail me if you have any questions.
[coca_coola] (in elvish)
[ILookLikeLuthien] so I shall go after one question: where can I find all of the sindarin vocab?
[Elostrion] I would catch about every other word.
[Elostrion] Let me get you a link ILookLikeLuthien...
[ILookLikeLuthien] thank you Elostrion
[Not_Maedhros] Elostrion, is there a negative verb tense in Quenya?
[Not_Maedhros] That is completely unlreated to Sindarin, though.
[ILookLikeLuthien] thank you, Elostrion.
[Elostrion] Please e-mail me for a full answer Not_Maedhros.
[Elostrion] You're welcome ILookLikeLuthien
[Bullmaiden] Was this lesson just on soft mutation, or all of the mutations (nasal etc.)?
[ILookLikeLuthien] well, my friend succeeded in ruining my night :( but oh well, I'll see if I can follow the Qs anyway...
[Elostrion] Just Soft(Lenition)
[Bullmaiden] what's the difference between lenition and mutation?
[Elostrion] Let me explain the problem with memorizing Sindarin vocabulary...
[Elostrion] Soft Mutation is also referred to as Lenition
[coca_coola] oh no you can't do that? I"m in the midst of memorizing
[Elostrion] Sindarin is a lot like Ancient Hebrew in this mattter.
[Elostrion] There are very few words; however, each word has many multiple meanings.
[ILookLikeLuthien] hmm, maybe I'll ask my friend who speaks Hebrew...
[Elostrion] Here is an example:
[ILookLikeLuthien] oh...they're called...I forget the word for a word w/ multiple meanings.
[Elostrion] In Hebrew (and Sindarin) there is one word for both snow and white.
[Elostrion] You have to memorize each meaning for over 800 words.
[coca_coola] ah, im screwed now aren't i cuz i just wasted my time memorizing and learning
[ILookLikeLuthien] memorization is....fun...sometimes...not...that's the only thing that I don't have so much fun with in French.
[Elostrion] The mutations complicate things when listening, you have to have them thoroughly memorizing them.
[ILookLikeLuthien] but I'll try!!
[Elostrion] Grammar, ahh!
[ILookLikeLuthien] yeah, French is hard to understand in speaking sometimes too, I'm used to that complication
[Elostrion] The mutations complicate things when listening, you have to have them thoroughly memorized to be able to understand.***
[ILookLikeLuthien] well, a bunch of the French words sound alike.
[coca_coola] I'm fluent in french and i feel your pain i love luthien........i live in montreal!
[ariannaxis] me too
[Eowyn] well I suppose if you were an elf and had been living for thousands of yrs. , you'd have the time to memorise all that!
[Elostrion] It would be completely different as a birth language.
[coca_coola] i guess its not really memorizing is it elostrion but understanding and learning
[Elostrion] There is an aweful lot of memorizing, however.
[Elostrion] There are so many forms of words, that's the problem.
[Not_Maedhros] Most vocabulary.
[coca_coola] everyday i tryy to learn atleast 4 new sindarin words but it is so hard to improve because i have no one to practice and share my knowledge with to improve
[ILookLikeLuthien] I'm good w/ conjugation.
[ILookLikeLuthien] and pronunciation...in French anyway...
[Elostrion] Are you really ILookLikeLuthien??
[Elostrion] oh, LoL
[ILookLikeLuthien] yes I am
[Not_Maedhros] Conjuagation and pronounciation is eaqsy.
[Eowyn] yeah being able to practice with someone is the best way to get a grip on the language
[ILookLikeLuthien] conjugation makes sense to me
[Not_Maedhros] I can pronounce anything for anyone
[Elostrion] I would be happy to help you learn coca_coola
[ILookLikeLuthien] oh, shush Not.
[Not_Maedhros] Believe me.
[coca_coola] really? cause i'd love some help
[Not_Maedhros] I can pronounce EVERY SINGLE SOUND on the IPA
[Elostrion] e-mail me coca_coola
[coca_coola] im only 14 so i guess i have a while to learn but i still am very eager to learn now
jincey is waiting for her nick to be translated ; )
[Strakul] Not_Maedhros: how about you make recordings of the words (especially those with y) to help us pronounce them?
[ILookLikeLuthien] I pick up well on pronunciation, i.e. I speak English, am learning French, and am learning 2 Italian songs right now, and their pronunciation is coming to me also.
[Not_Maedhros] I'll think about it.
[ILookLikeLuthien] yeah Not!
[Not_Maedhros] It all depends on whether or not I can get my brother to let me use his microphone and computer
[Strakul] I don't know how to pronounce "y" :(
[coca_coola] I am fluent in french and english and am now learning sindarin and i know some quenya
[Not_Maedhros] He has a GOOD microphone and recording program.
[ILookLikeLuthien] I don't know how to pronounce...anything...
[Not_Maedhros] Strakul, make your lips as if you were going to say "oo
[ILookLikeLuthien] well, I know the dh/th thing
[coca_coola] elostrion which address would i e-mail u to?
[Not_Maedhros] Say "ee" but keep your lips the same
[coca_coola] i am fine with pronunciation, it comes sorta quick for me like french
[Strakul] ... sounds like an "i" to me
[ILookLikeLuthien] yeah, I am too, I just need to be able to learn Sindarin prons. when noone is home...
[Elostrion] Oh dear coca_coola
[ILookLikeLuthien] so I can't start saying "ee" through an "oo" face...
[Strakul] doesn't work, i think i have an accent
[coca_coola] if someone had a web camera i'd think it'd be the funniest thing to watch everyone trying to see ee through an ooo face
[ILookLikeLuthien] I know...
[ILookLikeLuthien] that would be hilarity in the extreme...
[Strakul makes sure he's alone
[Not_Maedhros will say it
[Not_Maedhros] I will record it too
[Not_Maedhros] It will sound fine.
[Not_Maedhros] And look okay.
[Not_Maedhros] ILookLikeLuthien, you are learning French, no?
[ILookLikeLuthien] I can record too...but I don't know how to pronounce :P
[Not_Maedhros] The "u" sound in "du", and "lune" is Sindarin "y"
[coca_coola] i can help anyone in french......that im good at
[ILookLikeLuthien] oh really??
[coca_coola] yeah well i hope i am cuz i live in montreal!
[ILookLikeLuthien] eu...sort of...
[Not_Maedhros] coca_coola, it's "u" as in "du" and "lune"
[ILookLikeLuthien] it's an indescribable sound, ahhh
[coca_coola] and go 2 a billingual school
[Strakul] hmm, i only know english and spanish :(
[Not_Maedhros] Elostrion, is there a front rounded vowel in Spanish?
[[Bullmaiden] Bye peps, I have geometry
[[ILookLikeLuthien] well, I'm not fluent in French yet...only in French 3
[ILookLikeLuthien] bye Bullmaiden!
[Elostrion] So long Bullmaiden
[Bullmaiden] Thanks for the lesson!
[Elostrion] It is my pleasure
[Not_Maedhros] Thanks for the lesson Elostrion
[ILookLikeLuthien] next week, I'll ignore all my ims and not open any other pages but the charts, so ppl can't mess up my online!
[Not_Maedhros] coca_coola, you do speak French, right?
[Elostrion] I'm gonna go now, if there are no objections.
[Elostrion] I have work to do.
[jincey] thanks elostrion!
[Not_Maedhros] Bye, Elostrion
[coca_coola] elostrion will you be checking your e-mail in the next 2 weeks because i'll be online cause im on break
[coca_coola] yeah i speak fluent french not maedhros
[Elostrion] You're very welcome!
ILookLikeLuthien] Navaer, Elostrion!
Elostrion] LoL, yes coca_coola
Elostrion has left #thehalloffire
*** Log file opened: 3/12/2003 6:54:18 PM
[Elostrion] Let's begin.