|2-13-03 Latest News |
Elvish Language Lesson #2
Jincey @ 10:08 pm EST
Our second lesson on "How to Construct a Sindarin Sentence", which concentrated on articles, took place Wednesday, Feb 12 in #TheHallofFire. We'd like to thank our guest, Barliman's regular and self-taught language expert Elostrion. Here's the transcript of the log: [Elostrion] Welcome to "How to Construct a Sindarin Sentence: Lesson Two"
[Elostrion] We will be covering Articles.
[Elostrion] They are very simple.
[Elostrion] In Sindarin, there are no indefinate articles (a, an).
[Elostrion] Only definate (the).
[Elostrion] However, there are four forms of "the".
[Elostrion] Sindarin "the" has two distinct divisions:
[Elostrion] Singular and Plural
[Elostrion] Each has a seperate particle article and a suffix form.
[Elostrion] The Sindarin Singular "the" is "i, -n"
[Elostrion] The "i" stands alone
[Elostrion] The "-n" is suffixed onto the preceding word.
[Elostrion] Obviously, if there is no word preceding the article, than we cannot use the suffix form.
[Elostrion] I prefer to use the suffix form in all cases I am able.
[Elostrion] However, be careful not to suffix onto consonants that cannot be followed by an "n", e.g. "m, etc."
[Elostrion] "in, -in"
[Elostrion] The same rules apply.
[Elostrion] We have more liberty with the suffix "-in" because it begins with a vowel.
[Elostrion] As I stated last lesson, Sindarin articles always precede their noun.
[Elostrion] Here are a few examples:
[Elostrion] The bull...
[Elostrion] We would use a singular article, becuase there is only one bull.
[Elostrion] And since "the" is not preceded by another word, we have only one choice...
[Elostrion] "I vund..."
[Elostrion] ...abandon the birds...
[Elostrion] We would use a plural article, because there is more than one bird.
[Elostrion] "...awartha i filig..."
[Elostrion] The change in the article is explained by Consonant Mutation, which we will cover soon.
[Elostrion] We have also another choice...
[Elostrion] "...awarthan filig..."
[Elostrion] I am ready to take questions
[Elwen] i would just like to now if the same consonants apply in Sindarin as in Quenya as far as not being able to suffix -n to them
[Elostrion] There are of course different rules that apply; however, in this case, most are concurrent between the two languages. Such as:
[Elostrion] Next question please.
[JulieOh] is the article always required, or can it be understood? e.g., would "I like books" have to be translated to "I like the books"?
[Elostrion] Sindarin is unique in that you have quite a bit of freedom on matters like these.
[Elostrion] In situations such as Noun Declinsion and such the article is always understood.
[Elostrion] It is more common to write the article; however, if it is not wanted/needed you may leave it out.
[Elaran] question: we dont have any examples of a article being suffixed to the word before it. only combined with prepostions....
[Elostrion] That is true; however, this theory arised after many years of hard study and a collaboration of minds.
[jincey] could you tell us who the scholars are?
[Elostrion] We have come to the conclusion that it is probably possible to do so.
[Elostrion] Ryzsard J. Derdzinski is a wonderful mind
[Elostrion] As is Helge E. Fauskanger
[Elostrion] And, of course, we cannot forget David Salo, the leading Elvish expert in the world.
[Elaran] ask : why do you believe that it is possible?
[Elostrion] I have come to trust these men over my studies. I have not delved too deep into the issue myself, seeing it as already resolved.
[Arodriel] wheres the best place to find verbs in elvish?
[Elostrion] ardalambion.com, run by Helge Fauskanger, has a wonderful new page up with suggested conjugations of Sindarin verbs...
[Elostrion] however, I am not sure I agree with everything that is contained inside.
[Elostrion] The document is not perfect. Don't take it as canon.
[Elostrion] Another question?
[Eravial] question: could you give us a couple more examples of plural artcle usage?
[Elostrion] "The bulls..."
[Elostrion] "I vund..."
[Elostrion] Again the change is explained by consonant mutation
[Elostrion] Is there another?
[Darkfyre] Question: Is there an example that doesn't use consonant mutation?
[Elostrion] "The strikes..."
[Elostrion] "In draimm..."
[Elostrion] Are there any more?
[jincey] i think we are ready to open the floor now. Looks like there is some debate on what is canon and what is conjecture : )
[Elostrion] Thank you all for coming...I hope to see you next week.
[Raven_Tindomiel] thanks, Elostrion
[happy_eirien] will we be learning characters during these lessons?
[JulieOh] thanks Elostrion! Can't wait for next week
[Not_Maedhros] What is the article "ir" for?
[Menelmacar] thank you very much
[Elostrion] It is my pleasure Raven
[Darkfyre] thanks Elostrion
[Eravial] thank you
[Thevina] Elostrian... I am so sorry I missed your class! :(
[Arodriel] whats the next lesson gonna be on?
[Jeremy] can someone give an example of Singular articles usage?
Not_Maedhros is unhappy that he missed it.
[Elostrion] LoL, u-moe edaved.
[TheRedSunRises] 3Cuio nin mellon Elostrion
[TheRedSunRises] and thanks!
[Elaran] Elostrion... we have examples of -in being used with a plual subject, Fauskanger notes this, any comments?
[Elostrion] Excuse my lack of accents.
[Elaran] sorry Singular subject
[Elaran] _erin dolothen ethuil_ on the eight day......
[Lembas_n_Cram] thanks Elostrion!
[Elaran] I do not think it is safe to assume that we can use -in in reference to plural subjects only
Thevina the incredibly behind the times asks if these lessons will be each Wednesday?
[Elostrion] There are very many attested examples like this, applying to different areas. Tolkien kept changing his mind about Sindarin, so it is hard to see which version is the final.
[Elassar] am i the only one who can't understand elvish?
[Elaran] Yes but Fauskanger says that no rule can be reached
[Not_Maedhros] I cannot understand... most of it.
[aislinn] i am getting there
[Primula_Hornblower1] no Elassar
[Guest] i can say some basic words
[Elostrion] That is true to some extent
[Elaran] yet you presented it as if it was fact that -in was used in reference to a plular subject
[Not_Maedhros] Elostrion, what is the difference between present tense form of say... gâr and garir?
[happy_eirien] will we learn how to use characters?
[Not_Maedhros] happy_eirien, chgaracters?
[Not_Maedhros] If you mean the Tengwar, I can help you there...
[Elassar] when's the next lesson?
[Arodriel] and what is it on?
[Eravial] will the lesson be posted like the first one?
[Elaran] garir means "they hold" gar means "hold"
[Elostrion] Every Wednesday at 7:00pmEST
[Smoky] Elostrion...could you tell me what mutation to use in a phrase like "leaves of the trees" ??
[Thevina] thank you, Elostrion! next week I won't miss it altogether...
[Elostrion] Smoky, e-mail me and I will be glad to help.
Not_Maedhros feels sorry for poor Elsortion
[Guest] is the lesson over
[Elaran] Elostrion, in your example _i vund_ you used lenition instead of nasal mutation... any comments?
[Smoky] ok ....thanks !!!
[jincey] we are taking general questions now
[Elostrion] In fact, if any of you have any questions, feel free to e-mail me at email@example.com
[Thevina] Really? You don't mind being inundated?
[Arodriel] what a nice boy
[Thevina] I'm translating an English phrase to Sindarin, using a PDF Sindarin dictionary...
[Primula_Hornblower1] thats cool Thevina
[Elaran] Elostrion - whose theory is it exactly that you can suffic -n to the end of the previous word?
[Thevina] Thanks, Primula. It sounded Elvish even in English- wanted to translate it for her for fun. Plus I was sure it would look gorgeous in Tengwar.
[Arodriel] is there a book souly based on how to speak elvish?
[Guest] elostrion, are you the teacher
[Primula_Hornblower1] Tengwar is not easy
[Elostrion] I am Guest
[Elostrion] I pm'd you Elaran
[Guest] oh ok
[Elaran] uh, how do I check pms?
[Thevina] Tengwar isn't too bad... just put the symbols to the right in Sindarin, to the left or right above in Quenya... basically...
[Elostrion] Arodriel, there are none available in the US
[Thevina] (to represent vowels, that is)
[Arodriel] that stinks
[Arodriel] write one
[Elassar] is there any books I can find that teaches Sindarin
[Thevina] There are some online lessons for Quenya, if memory serves...
[Elostrion] Elassar, there are no reliable books on the shelf
[Thevina] A chap in Finland has them.
[Thevina] sorry... that's probably not very helpful! :P
[Arodriel] how much longer are you gonna be on Elostrion?
[Elostrion] A few minutes
[Guest] there are some basics for tengwar and some other stuuf in the back of the book the return of the king
[Thevina] Okay... Elostrion, thank you, and I'll be here on time next week.
[Tauriel] Online Quenya lessons are at http://ardalambion.com
[Arodriel] i had to babysit and i missed it yet again
[Tauriel] Hi :-)
[Arodriel] i gotta go eat so thanks elostrion, namarie!
[Elostrion] You're welcome
[tigere47] namarie arodiel
[Elostrion] Navaer mellyn nîn!
[Elassar] thank you!
[Halladaliel] thanks again and see you week!
Lembas_n_Cram opens the door, waves, and walks out into the night
Elostrion has left #thehalloffire
[Elostrion] Welcome to "How to Construct a Sindarin Sentence: Lesson Two"